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Old 21-11-2018   #16
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Re: Engine driveshaft issue

Quote Originally Posted by Pugglt Auld Jock View Post
Hi shiny, very sorry to hear of your problems. From what you are describing it certainly sounds to be internal gearbox gremlins. It would be interesting to strip it and find out what's happened but at the end of the day your best option, as suggested by g8rpi, is probably going to be a good (with guarantee) used box. It seems likely there's been an internal failure of something. When this happens, because the whole box shares the same oil, it's common to find lots of horrid little shards of metal from whatever has failed, spread generously around all the other bearings, embedded in synchro rings, and blocking up oilways - I could go on.

It interests me however, to speculate on your observations so here's my ha'penny worth.

If you suspend the front end of most front wheel drive vehicles so the the wheels can be spun you will find that, with a stationary engine, a gear engaged and foot off the clutch you will get the effect you see - that is if you rotate one wheel clockwise the other will go anticlockwise. The reason for this is that with the engine stationary, clutch gripping and a gear engaged the gearbox is locked stationary. Therefore the pinion gear and crown wheel cannot turn. The bevel gears in the differential are perfectly free to turn though which produces the above result. Yours seems to do this? So it's likely, and I can only say likely, that the bevel gears are ok. But you say that you cannot turn a wheel if you jack up just one wheel with the other on the ground? If the gearbox is in neutral then turning just one wheel would cause the crown week to turn which would rotate the pinion gear and output shaft with its gears inside the box. You say it's solid when you try this. That's about the only positive thing I can say as I can imagine a few things such as - broken pinion as g8rpi suggests being just one. Anything which might stop the crown wheel from rotating from broken teeth (crown wheel/pinion) bits of gear tooth or broken bearing jammed in a gear? No! Stop! I think this is a bit pointless as the only way to really know is to strip the box and it's only worth doing that if you intend to rebuild and if you're going to rebuild you really need to recon the whole box as there may well be damage to other bearings etc which will only become apparent after you've reassembled it and got a few miles on it.

So sorry to sound so gloomy. Do keep us updated. It would be lovely to hear it was something cheap and simple - I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!
Regards
Jock
Jock,

Just reading what you said again, when I jacked up the car and the turned one of the wheels the car was in neutral not in gear when they were turning in opposite directions.
Does this make any difference?
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Old 21-11-2018   #17
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Re: Engine driveshaft issue

PAJ,
My take from the description of the fault and testing is that the differntial is operating in reverse only and loking up when driven forward hence cant turn one wheel forfard with the other on the ground. One end of a pinion journal sheared or bearing failed could cause this. My suggestion to replace box is same logic as yours, it only needs one bit of metal lurking to wreck all the work rebuilding it.
Rebuilding a modern gearbox is not for the faint hearted. You CAN easily get 5 reverse gears just by putting the diff in back to front.
Looks like even a recon 'box is under 400 and a used one 100-200 so not that expensive.

Robert G8RPI.
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Old 21-11-2018   #18
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Re: Engine driveshaft issue

Quote Originally Posted by shiny8163 View Post
Jock,

Just reading what you said again, when I jacked up the car and the turned one of the wheels the car was in neutral not in gear when they were turning in opposite directions.
Does this make any difference?
Hi again. The bevel gears' there are 4 of them, run inside a cage which is bolted (or otherwise fixed) to the differential crown wheel. Two, one on either side, of the bevel gears are mounted on the driveshafts which go to the wheels. The other two bevel gears are mounted, free running, on a pinion shaft which is fixed to the diff cage. There are some very good You Tube videos which describe how it all operates. If both wheels are off the ground then turning one wheel will turn the bevel gear connected to it which will cause both the free running bevel gears in the diff cage to rotate thus driving the bevel gear connected on the other side of the diff cage and causing it to rotate in the opposite direction to the one you're turning and so you will see the other wheel turning in the opposite direction. Whether the box is in gear or not probably won't make a great difference to what you see because the internal drag of the box will mean that the crown wheel will not move much even if the box is in neutral. If the gearbox internals move a bit while you're doing this you might notice that the wheel on the other side to where you are is not turning as fast as the one you are moving. The reason for this is that the crown wheel may be slowly turning allowing the diff cage, with it's internal bevel gears, to tumble a little.

Now consider what is happening if you leave one wheel on the ground. Now the bevel gear inside the diff cage which is directly connected to that wheel's drive shaft is not going to be able to turn. So if you now try to turn the wheel that's off the ground the bevel gear connected to it's drive shaft is going to have a turning force applied to it which will try to turn the two free running bevel gears which are on the pinion shaft in the diff cage. But the bevel gear connected to the other wheel can't turn because that wheel is on the ground. If the gearbox is in good condition and in neutral (no gear selected) then the bevel gears will "climb" around the stationary bevel gear and drive the diff cage which is connected to the crown wheel which is in mesh with the pinion gear which is splined to the output end of the gearbox 3rd motion shaft (output shaft) which carries the driven gears. If no gears are selected then all of this should be free to rotate so you will find you can easily rotate the wheel that is suspended. If anything is stopping this rotation - for instance you could select a gear. Now, because the engine is not turning and the clutch is engaged (foot off the clutch pedal) If you select any gear you will not be able to turn the wheel any more. likewise if anything on the output side of the box is damaged/jammed. For instance, but not an exhaustive list, Damaged bearings. Damaged, chipped or missing gear teeth. (it only takes one small chip!) Foreign bodies in the gear train (a broken bit of something from somewhere else in the box) the possibilities are multitude but if any of it stops the output side of the box from being able to rotate then you won't be able to turn that wheel.

You might find that if you violently rock the wheel back and forward - careful, don't knock the car off the stand (you're not doing this on a jack alone are you?) - if the obstruction is not too well wedged in, you might be able to temporarily free it. However it will do you no good because driving it will just do more damage and it's very likely it will soon jam up again. It might give a little satisfaction though! Don't be surprised if you can't free it though as the forces at work are very great.

Just to illustrate. Back in the 1970's I ran a Triumph Vitesse. (Sporty six cylinder engine with rear wheel drive) One day, on my way home about a mile from home, as I pulled away quite quickly from the lights there was a loud bang. It seemed to come from the back of the car. I immediately pulled over and had a quick look but could see nothing amiss. Within about a hundred yards the car seemed to loose power even though the engine sounded to be pulling normally. I decided to stop and have another look but had to find a place out of the traffic to stop. Suddenly another but different loud bang. the "drag" disappeared and she drove normally again so I drove the last half mile home. After tea I went out with my torch to find a nice wee puddle of gear oil on the road under the back of the car. What had happened? Well the first bang was a large chunk of crown wheel tooth breaking off. I assume it was picked up from the bottom of the diff case by the circulating oil flow and stuffed itself up the back of the crown wheel between it and the back of the casing where it acted like putting your foot on the back wheel of your scooter, that's why she slowed up. Until the forces became so great that it burst out the back of the casing and freed the crown wheel up to rotate freely again. Of course the crown wheel very happily flung most of the oil out the hole! The whole thing was an absolute disaster. I had to get another complete diff from a scrappie and one of the fixing bolts led me a merry dance for a couple of evenings before it would give in and let me remove it!

So, on that thoroughly depressing and gloomy note I'll wish you good night. Don't forget to let us know how it all turns out though won't you because it all adds to our knowledge base even if it's not "happy news"'
all the best
Jock
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Old 22-11-2018   #19
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Re: Engine driveshaft issue

Guys,

Thanks for all the advice so far but after spending more time underneath it today I've decided to ask for help locally from someone with more experience than myself as I'm getting too old to be lying out in this cold.

I've sourced a reconditioned gearbox with a years guarantee in sunny Oldham for about 400 so if this guy says it is definitely the gearbox then that's the way I'm going.

I will update the post once I've had it looked at and I know better what's wrong with it and if it is the gearbox I will strip down the old one and try to post pictures.

Will probably need help with that too.

Will be in touch soon but it's coffee time now to heat me up.

Thanks again guys.
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Old 22-11-2018   #20
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Re: Engine driveshaft issue

I think we all know about the age thing..
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Old 28-11-2018   #21
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Re: Engine driveshaft issue

Quote Originally Posted by varesecrazy View Post
I think we all know about the age thing..
Yup, the Panda is limping along with just a hint of clutch slip just now. A few years ago I would be out there, thumbing my nose at the wind and rain, but just can't do it any more. afraid I'm a "fair weather mechanic" these days! Thinking of entrusting it to that local Fiat independent of whom I have previously spoken, but feel I'm betraying the old girl in some way?
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Old 02-12-2018   #22
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Re: Engine driveshaft issue

Latest update guys,

I have now managed to get the patient into the garage and jacked up and have found a bit of damage to the underside of the diff.

It looks like a bit of the cast has been knocked out from the inside causing a fatal loss of gearbox oil.

The underside was relatively dry before I moved it.

It just looked like old oil that was covering it but when I checked the level anyway I found the box was almost dry inside.

Don't know how long it has been like this as teenagers don't seem to want to look at cars these days just drive them till they break!!

Anyway, I filled the gearbox up to the level whilst on the axle stands with no dramas at all.

When I dropped it down to move it however that was a different story altogether.

It went into gear no problem which let me move it into the garage but when I stopped it there was a lovely flow of fresh gearbox oil running out the door and completely soaking underneath.

It must have been coming out with some pressure.

I will try to put a picture of the hole onto the post but may need some help with that.

I'll shout if I can't do it and I will add more pics once I get it stripped down.

Cheers,
Davie.

OK I can't add a picture. How do I do this please? When I click on add an image it's asking me for the url of my image.

Cancel that I managed it below. Thanks.
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Last edited by shiny8163; 02-12-2018 at 13:50.
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Old 02-12-2018   #23
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Re: Engine driveshaft issue

Click image for larger version

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I've checked it and this worked.

I have looked where the car was parked but I can't see any bits of metal lying around so don't know when it has happened.
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Last edited by shiny8163; 02-12-2018 at 13:53.
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Old 02-12-2018   #24
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Re: Engine driveshaft issue

Probably an internal part failed..at speed :revs.. will have gone out like a bullet.

Well done for getting into the warm and dry though..!!
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Old 02-12-2018   #25
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Re: Engine driveshaft issue

I agree, internal failure.

This type of damage is normlly more than a reconditioner will accept for exchange. Only realistic option is to get a second hand gearbox from a breaker or outright purchase from a reconditioner.

Robert G8RPI.
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Last edited by g8rpi; 02-12-2018 at 16:39.
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Old 02-12-2018   #26
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Re: Engine driveshaft issue

Thanks for your replies guys.

The part that can be seen in the hole is loose inside the casing so I'm assuming this is the guilty part.

I'm going to order a reconditioned gearbox with a years guarantee from a Fiat specialist in Oldham unless anyone knows of somewhere I can get one in Central Scotland.

I'll order one up once I get the old one out.

Only the driveshafts and the gearbox bolts to go.

Once I get them swapped over and have checked that all is ok I will strip the old diff down to see exactly what is broken.

I will update with as much info as I can along with pictures to back it up.

Hopefully it will be useful information for the forum.
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Old 03-12-2018   #27
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Re: Engine driveshaft issue

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Old 03-12-2018   #28
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Quote Originally Posted by Pugglt Auld Jock View Post
Hi again. The bevel gears' there are 4 of them, run inside a cage which is bolted (or otherwise fixed) to the differential crown wheel. Two, one on either side, of the bevel gears are mounted on the driveshafts which go to the wheels. The other two bevel gears are mounted, free running, on a pinion shaft which is fixed to the diff cage. There are some very good You Tube videos which describe how it all operates. If both wheels are off the ground then turning one wheel will turn the bevel gear connected to it which will cause both the free running bevel gears in the diff cage to rotate thus driving the bevel gear connected on the other side of the diff cage


Don't forget to let us know how it all turns out though won't you because it all adds to our knowledge base even if it's not "happy news"'
all the best
Jock
Got any recommendations on a supplier of a replacement Jock?
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Old 04-12-2018   #29
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Re: Engine driveshaft issue

Quote Originally Posted by varesecrazy View Post
Got any recommendations on a supplier of a replacement Jock?
Haven't really had any gearbox problems of significance for quite a long time now so I've not needed to source anything more than seals etc for many years.

However "Automotive Automatics" in Gordon street Leith have been around almost since I was in nappies! A simple manual box like this would pose no challenge to them I'm sure. Many years ago they helped me source parts for an Austin Ambassador gearbox (that was a heavy lump to lift with my home made gantry!) and I found them very helpful. Although I haven't been near them in years I would probably feel confident in approaching them if I needed. Other than that there are several breakers - Sports car breakers at Newbridge, S & I Thomson down in Galashiels, Finlayson Auto's in Musselburgh. My main contact used to be "Herby" who had a yard on "The Wisp" but like me, he got old! I think his son now runs it as a car wash?
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Old 04-12-2018   #30
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Re: Engine driveshaft issue

Like all these things.. the info is out there.. you just need the right person..

Thanks.

All the Fiat:Alfa places near me have gone..

So nothing is simple
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