Technical Light Problem

[llanrads]

Had my evo multiair 105bhp for several months now and has given 3k miles with no issues.

However i i have used my dipped headlights for the first time recently and noticed that my nearside driving/fog light comes on as well, If i put the fog lights on they both illuminate but the nearside stays on when i knock the switch off, Before i go looking anybody else had this issue.
Cheers
Stef

 

[Andy Monty]

Had my evo multiair 105bhp for several months now and has given 3k miles with no issues.

However i i have used my dipped headlights for the first time recently and noticed that my nearside driving/fog light comes on as well, If i put the fog lights on they both illuminate but the nearside stays on when i knock the switch off, Before i go looking anybody else had this issue.
Cheers
Stef

stef does it turn off when you straighten the steering wheels? and if you steer from centre to the right does the right hand fog light come on?

 

[llanrads]

Hi Andy
yes that's exactly what happens just tried it. When i turned headlights on and turned the steering wheel to the left the fog light does come on and the same when i turn it to the right.

Stef

 

[Andy Monty]

Hi Andy
yes that's exactly what happens just tried it. When i turned headlights on and turned the steering wheel to the left the fog light does come on and the same when i turn it to the right.

Stef

They are called cornering lights they come on / become active. Under about 25mph when you do about half a turn of the wheel from center. They are great on unlit windy country lanes but pointless in town IMO....

They can be turned off from the menu button near your right knee. Reading the mileage odometer as you scroll through its menu

Have you found the day time running lights yet?
Also in the menu you can turn off the passenger air bag etc

 

[llanrads]

Hi Andy
feel like a right dipstick now. These will come in usefull as my daily commute does have some b roads so they will come in handy,
I have already knocked my day lights off as i find them pointless.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge mate.

Stef

 

[CJXY]

I have already knocked my day lights off as i find them pointless.

Haven't heard of anyone being prosecuted / pulled up about it, but (where fitted), it's a requirement for these to be operational....

 

[llanrads]

News to me this, well in this country anyway. As i visit Italy several times a year i know that it's a requirement to have them on out there. Not aware that we have to have them on here though.

 

[Andy Monty]

Haven't heard of anyone being prosecuted / pulled up about it, but (where fitted), it's a requirement for these to be operational....

Where did you hear / see that?

 

[CJXY]

VOSA type approvals, MOT manual, and I believe it's in the Road and Vehicle Lighting Regulations too.... i'll look up the references later, at work just now.

 

[CJXY]

Ok, so it’s quiet at work, and I couldn’t help myself…:

From VOSA, here’s the MOT manual for passenger cars, updated June 2013: IVA inspection manual for passenger vehicles (M1)

Linky: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/iva-manual-for-vehicle-category-m1


PDF: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/203591/M1_IVA_inspection_manual.pdf

Page 180, Note 6:

"Daytime running lamps. The lamps must be connected so that they switch off automatically when the headlamps are on. (Except for when the headlamps are flashed)."

Page 181, Required Standard, Daytime Running Lamps

“Daytime running lamps;
23. The correct number must be fitted to the vehicle ( Table 1 )

24. They must be operational

25. They must only emit white light to the front

26. They must be positioned to meet

a. the positional requirements of Table 1

b. the angles of visibility requirements of Table 1

27. They must extinguish automatically when headlamps are operated. (see note 6) “


I found the amendment to the RVLR, it's covered under regulation 18, Schedule 3: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/schedule/3/made


As I say, I’m yet to hear or anyone being pulled over, given a VDRN etc for having them switched off (I hear that actually, some traffic cops prefer them off), but I can see this being responsible for a LOT of MOT fails on new cars once they reach 3 years old, if the owners has turned the DRLs off in their menu.

Chris. :bang:

 

[llanrads]

My car passed the mot with the lights switched off, but i wasn,t present so i don't know if they checked them or even aware of it.

 

[CJXY]

Odd. Unsure if this is because your car was manufactured before it was a requirement of the vehicle type approval.

I don't like them either, but I leave them switched on because AFAIK I'm required to !

Genuinely interested in this, gonna drop VOSA an email and ask them to clarify their position.

 

[llanrads]

Let us know what they say cj

 

[Andy Monty]

Ok, so it’s quiet at work, and I couldn’t help myself…:

From VOSA, here’s the MOT manual for passenger cars, updated June 2013: IVA inspection manual for passenger vehicles (M1)

Linky: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/iva-manual-for-vehicle-category-m1


PDF: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/203591/M1_IVA_inspection_manual.pdf

Page 180, Note 6:

"Daytime running lamps. The lamps must be connected so that they switch off automatically when the headlamps are on. (Except for when the headlamps are flashed)."

Page 181, Required Standard, Daytime Running Lamps

“Daytime running lamps;
23. The correct number must be fitted to the vehicle ( Table 1 )

24. They must be operational

25. They must only emit white light to the front

26. They must be positioned to meet

a. the positional requirements of Table 1

b. the angles of visibility requirements of Table 1

27. They must extinguish automatically when headlamps are operated. (see note 6) “


I found the amendment to the RVLR, it's covered under regulation 18, Schedule 3: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/schedule/3/made


As I say, I’m yet to hear or anyone being pulled over, given a VDRN etc for having them switched off (I hear that actually, some traffic cops prefer them off), but I can see this being responsible for a LOT of MOT fails on new cars once they reach 3 years old, if the owners has turned the DRLs off in their menu.

Chris. :bang:

Nothing in there unless I missed it says they MUST be used. Operational is a different thing much like your rear fog light must be operational .... . It also relates to filament lamps. LEDs on the likes of Audi BMW merc and range rovers can't comply with rvlr

 

[CJXY]

No, but it does say

"27. They must extinguish automatically when headlamps are operated. (see note 6) “

"Note 6: Daytime running lamps. The lamps must be connected so that they switch off automatically when the headlamps are on. (Except for when the headlamps are flashed)."

- suggesting they must be on when the headlamps aren't.

Also 'they must be operational' - then refer to RVLR, describing their operation - the 'light' must be emitted when the positioning lamps are off, and when the positioning lamps (sidelights ?) are on, but headlights aren't.

The wording is, as usual, a bit of a cluster-f**k, but think about it - why would they make it mandatory for them to have them fitted on new cars, if it wasn't mandatory to use them ? Consider seatbelts in the same manner... ?

RE: LEDs, the filament refers to 'dim-dip' devices, which IIRC is an alternative to DRLS - both types are covered in RVLR.

I emailed VOSA, see what they reply with - if they bother replying !

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

I have already knocked my day lights off as i find them pointless.

The mind boggles, why would you actively try and make yourself less visible

No, but it does say

"27. They must extinguish automatically when headlamps are operated. (see note 6) “

"Note 6: Daytime running lamps. The lamps must be connected so that they switch off automatically when the headlamps are on. (Except for when the headlamps are flashed)."

- suggesting they must be on when the headlamps aren't.

Also 'they must be operational' - then refer to RVLR, describing their operation - the 'light' must be emitted when the positioning lamps are off, and when the positioning lamps (sidelights ?) are on, but headlights aren't.

The wording is, as usual, a bit of a cluster-f**k, but think about it - why would they make it mandatory for them to have them fitted on new cars, if it wasn't mandatory to use them ? Consider seatbelts in the same manner... ?

RE: LEDs, the filament refers to 'dim-dip' devices, which IIRC is an alternative to DRLS - both types are covered in RVLR.

I emailed VOSA, see what they reply with - if they bother replying !

Seems to go on about how they must operate in conjunction with other lights, but not that they MUST be used when no other lights are illuminated.Although would be a nice if you were right as those who switch them off obviously have no common sense imo - why try and make yourself less visible, regardless if you think they're worth having or not.

 

[Andy Monty]

No, but it does say

"27. They must extinguish automatically when headlamps are operated. (see note 6) “

"Note 6: Daytime running lamps. The lamps must be connected so that they switch off automatically when the headlamps are on. (Except for when the headlamps are flashed)."

- suggesting they must be on when the headlamps aren't.

Also 'they must be operational' - then refer to RVLR, describing their operation - the 'light' must be emitted when the positioning lamps are off, and when the positioning lamps (sidelights ?) are on, but headlights aren't.

The wording is, as usual, a bit of a cluster-f**k, but think about it - why would they make it mandatory for them to have them fitted on new cars, if it wasn't mandatory to use them ? Consider seatbelts in the same manner... ?

RE: LEDs, the filament refers to 'dim-dip' devices, which IIRC is an alternative to DRLS - both types are covered in RVLR.

I emailed VOSA, see what they reply with - if they bother replying !

It was the eec "government" that added drls to the "Newly type approved cars Must have fitted to meet type approval list"

As per normal the UK are way behind the times and we cherry pick what we comply with..... Up until recently hid / led lights had no references in the UK rvlr making them technically illegal

However since the cars were type approved in the eec, homologation over ruled our statutes ...

There is still no mention of cornering lights as far as I know in the rvlr either

Can see it been the insurance companies wrangling it in the small print about doing all you can to avoid an accident taking drls into account

 

[CJXY]

It was the eec "government" that added drls to the "Newly type approved cars Must have fitted to meet type approval list"

Don't even get me started on the E.U. / EEC :bang: - if Cameron gives us our EU referendum, I'm a YES. It may even sway me into voting no in the OTHER one

There is still no mention of cornering lights as far as I know in the rvlr either

I think, and I could be wrong, they are covered under 'optional lamps' - there is a mention on them under some obsure UN regulation (119 - cornering lamps) in the VOSA manual, but as they are optional - there's no 'requirements' to be met. Agreed, there's hee-haw in the RVLR.

Can see it been the insurance companies wrangling it in the small print about doing all you can to avoid an accident taking drls into account

Totally. You mowed a pedestrian down? "We inspected your car and found your DRLs disabled" - I can see that going down well, in fact I do wonder what the cops would make of that.

Seems to go on about how they must operate in conjunction with other lights, but not that they MUST be used when no other lights are illuminated.

This comment is for both of you.... lets turn the argument on it's head:

So, VOSA manual say the following:

"The lamps must be connected so that they switch off automatically when the headlamps are on. (Except for when the headlamps are flashed)"

- to me, this says they must be on, when the headlamps aren't.

Also, under the heading of "Required Standard"

"24. They must be operational" - To me, this means it is a requirement, that the lights MUST operate as described - now refer to RVLR:

"3. The electrical connections to the obligatory dim-dip device or running lamps, as the case may be, shall be such that the light output specified in paragraph 1 or 2 above is emitted automatically whenever–
(a)the engine of the vehicle is running, or the key or devices which control the starting or stopping of the engine are in the normal position for driving the vehicle, and
(i)the obligatory position lamps, but not the headlamps, of the vehicle are switched on, or
(ii)the obligatory position lamps are switched off."

Now, this is my question - I interpret that as follows:

- They must turn off when the headlights are turned on (but not flashed) - So to turn off, they first need to be on, right ?

- They must be on when the side lights are either on, or off.

- They must automatically turn on when the engine is started.

Therefore, by deduction, I can only interpret the regs as to mean that the DRLS must switch on automatically when the engine is on - they must stay on when sidelights are either on or off, and when headlights are flashed - and they must turn off (automatically) when the headlights, and/or main beam are turned on.

Can one of you explain how you would interpret the info above, from VOSA and RVLR to mean anything other than my interpretation. Can you explain how you can interpret the regs to allow them to be switched off manually, and/or not switch on automatically ?

I know i'm being like a dog with a bone with this one, but I just don't get the reasoning / argument behind switching them off.

 

[Most Easterly Pandas]

- to me, this says they must be on, when the headlamps aren't.

But thats where you've interprited it wrong.Show me where it says you MUST have them on?As I've said all that shows is how they MUST behave (if in operation) in connection to other lamps when they (the other lamps) are operated.

 

[CJXY]

But thats where you've interprited it wrong.Show me where it says you MUST have them on?As I've said all that shows is how they MUST behave (if in operation) in connection to other lamps when they (the other lamps) are operated.

RVLR. It says they must switch on when the engine is on, must be on when sidelights are either on or off, and must switch off when the headlamps are on.

I don't see how that can be interpreted in any other way.

Can you think of an example of an operational state of the 'other' lamps, which would result in the DRLs being off ? I can't.