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Old 12-08-2013   #16
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Re: Light Problem

Quote Originally Posted by llanrads View Post
I have already knocked my day lights off as i find them pointless.
The mind boggles, why would you actively try and make yourself less visible
Quote Originally Posted by cjdl View Post
No, but it does say

"27. They must extinguish automatically when headlamps are operated. (see note 6) “

"Note 6: Daytime running lamps. The lamps must be connected so that they switch off automatically when the headlamps are on. (Except for when the headlamps are flashed)."

- suggesting they must be on when the headlamps aren't.

Also 'they must be operational' - then refer to RVLR, describing their operation - the 'light' must be emitted when the positioning lamps are off, and when the positioning lamps (sidelights ?) are on, but headlights aren't.

The wording is, as usual, a bit of a cluster-f**k, but think about it - why would they make it mandatory for them to have them fitted on new cars, if it wasn't mandatory to use them ? Consider seatbelts in the same manner... ?

RE: LEDs, the filament refers to 'dim-dip' devices, which IIRC is an alternative to DRLS - both types are covered in RVLR.

I emailed VOSA, see what they reply with - if they bother replying !
Seems to go on about how they must operate in conjunction with other lights, but not that they MUST be used when no other lights are illuminated.Although would be a nice if you were right as those who switch them off obviously have no common sense imo - why try and make yourself less visible, regardless if you think they're worth having or not.
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Old 12-08-2013   #17
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Re: Light Problem

Quote Originally Posted by cjdl View Post
No, but it does say

"27. They must extinguish automatically when headlamps are operated. (see note 6) “

"Note 6: Daytime running lamps. The lamps must be connected so that they switch off automatically when the headlamps are on. (Except for when the headlamps are flashed)."

- suggesting they must be on when the headlamps aren't.

Also 'they must be operational' - then refer to RVLR, describing their operation - the 'light' must be emitted when the positioning lamps are off, and when the positioning lamps (sidelights ?) are on, but headlights aren't.

The wording is, as usual, a bit of a cluster-f**k, but think about it - why would they make it mandatory for them to have them fitted on new cars, if it wasn't mandatory to use them ? Consider seatbelts in the same manner... ?

RE: LEDs, the filament refers to 'dim-dip' devices, which IIRC is an alternative to DRLS - both types are covered in RVLR.

I emailed VOSA, see what they reply with - if they bother replying !
It was the eec "government" that added drls to the "Newly type approved cars Must have fitted to meet type approval list"

As per normal the UK are way behind the times and we cherry pick what we comply with..... Up until recently hid / led lights had no references in the UK rvlr making them technically illegal

However since the cars were type approved in the eec, homologation over ruled our statutes ...

There is still no mention of cornering lights as far as I know in the rvlr either

Can see it been the insurance companies wrangling it in the small print about doing all you can to avoid an accident taking drls into account
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Old 12-08-2013   #18
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Re: Light Problem

Quote Originally Posted by Andy Monty View Post
It was the eec "government" that added drls to the "Newly type approved cars Must have fitted to meet type approval list"
Don't even get me started on the E.U. / EEC - if Cameron gives us our EU referendum, I'm a YES. It may even sway me into voting no in the OTHER one

Quote Originally Posted by Andy Monty View Post
There is still no mention of cornering lights as far as I know in the rvlr either
I think, and I could be wrong, they are covered under 'optional lamps' - there is a mention on them under some obsure UN regulation (119 - cornering lamps) in the VOSA manual, but as they are optional - there's no 'requirements' to be met. Agreed, there's hee-haw in the RVLR.

Quote Originally Posted by Andy Monty View Post
Can see it been the insurance companies wrangling it in the small print about doing all you can to avoid an accident taking drls into account
Totally. You mowed a pedestrian down? "We inspected your car and found your DRLs disabled" - I can see that going down well, in fact I do wonder what the cops would make of that.

Quote Originally Posted by Most Easterly Pandas View Post
Seems to go on about how they must operate in conjunction with other lights, but not that they MUST be used when no other lights are illuminated.
This comment is for both of you.... lets turn the argument on it's head:

So, VOSA manual say the following:

"The lamps must be connected so that they switch off automatically when the headlamps are on. (Except for when the headlamps are flashed)"

- to me, this says they must be on
, when the headlamps aren't.

Also, under the heading of "Required Standard"

"24. They must be operational" - To me, this means it is a requirement, that the lights MUST operate as described - now refer to RVLR:

"3. The electrical connections to the obligatory dim-dip device or running lamps, as the case may be, shall be such that the light output specified in paragraph 1 or 2 above is emitted automatically whenever–
(a)the engine of the vehicle is running, or the key or devices which control the starting or stopping of the engine are in the normal position for driving the vehicle, and
(i)the obligatory position lamps, but not the headlamps, of the vehicle are switched on, or
(ii)the obligatory position lamps are switched off."


Now, this is my question - I interpret that as follows:

- They must turn off when the headlights are turned on (but not flashed) - So to turn off, they first need to be on, right ?

- They must be on when the side lights are either on, or off.

- They must automatically turn on when the engine is started.

Therefore, by deduction, I can only interpret the regs as to mean that the DRLS must switch on automatically when the engine is on - they must stay on when sidelights are either on or off, and when headlights are flashed - and they must turn off (automatically) when the headlights, and/or main beam are turned on.

Can one of you explain how you would interpret the info above, from VOSA and RVLR to mean anything other than my interpretation. Can you explain how you can interpret the regs to allow them to be switched off manually, and/or not switch on automatically ?

I know i'm being like a dog with a bone with this one, but I just don't get the reasoning / argument behind switching them off.
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Old 12-08-2013   #19
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Re: Light Problem

Quote Quote:
- to me, this says they must be on, when the headlamps aren't.
But thats where you've interprited it wrong.Show me where it says you MUST have them on?As I've said all that shows is how they MUST behave (if in operation) in connection to other lamps when they (the other lamps) are operated.
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Old 12-08-2013   #20
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Re: Light Problem

Quote Originally Posted by Most Easterly Pandas View Post
But thats where you've interprited it wrong.Show me where it says you MUST have them on?As I've said all that shows is how they MUST behave (if in operation) in connection to other lamps when they (the other lamps) are operated.
RVLR. It says they must switch on when the engine is on, must be on when sidelights are either on or off, and must switch off when the headlamps are on.

I don't see how that can be interpreted in any other way.

Can you think of an example of an operational state of the 'other' lamps, which would result in the DRLs being off ? I can't.
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Old 12-08-2013   #21
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Re: Light Problem

Quote Originally Posted by cjdl View Post
RVLR. It says they must switch on when the engine is on, must be on when sidelights are either on or off, and must switch off when the headlamps are on.

I don't see how that can be interpreted in any other way.

Can you think of an example of an operational state of the 'other' lamps, which would result in the DRLs being off ? I can't.
No, they have to be operational.
Quote Quote:
24. They must be operational
Operational doesn't nessecarily mean on, just be operational - ie can be turned on if required.With the way you say they must be on because the must function in a certain way is on you could say that the regs say fog lamps must not be used if visibility is better than 100 meters so MUST be used if visibility is less than 100 meters, and like wise this is not the case, although advisable.Like I say, don't get me wrong, I think it should become legal requirement for them to have to be operational, but unfortunatly atm its not the case, what you've quoted confirms it.
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Old 12-08-2013   #22
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Re: Light Problem

Quote Originally Posted by Most Easterly Pandas View Post
you could say that the regs say fog lamps must not be used if visibility is better than 100 meters so MUST be used if visibility is less than 100 meters, and like wise this is not the case, although advisable.Like I say, don't get me wrong, I think it should become legal requirement for them to have to be operational, but unfortunatly atm its not the case, what you've quoted confirms it.
Regarding rear fogs. RVLR prohibits their use:

Part III, s.27, 1.3 (b)Used so as to be lit at any time other than in conditions of seriously reduced visibility.

I disagree with your interpretation of 'operational'. RVLR prescribes the manner in which they must operate.

Further guidance from DFT: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.g...ing-lights.pdf
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Old 12-08-2013   #23
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Re: Light Problem

Quote Originally Posted by Most Easterly Pandas View Post
The mind boggles, why would you actively try and make yourself less visible

Seems to go on about how they must operate in conjunction with other lights, but not that they MUST be used when no other lights are illuminated.Although would be a nice if you were right as those who switch them off obviously have no common sense imo - why try and make yourself less visible, regardless if you think they're worth having or not.
Sorry mate i do not agree with you. I do not believe that using these daylights on days such as today will increase visibility to reduce the risk of an accident.
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Old 12-08-2013   #24
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Re: Light Problem

Quote Originally Posted by llanrads View Post
Sorry mate i do not agree with you. I do not believe that using these daylights on days such as today will increase visibility to reduce the risk of an accident.
It depends on where you are driving in a built up area perhaps not driving on a motorway probably not. Driving on roads such as country a roads and b/c with patches of tree cover then they are probably beneficial. As been from fully sunny to 'dark' it takes time for your eyes to adjust.... Then take into account those dank winter days again probably for the better been on. Or dawn /dusk when the sun is low in the sky dazzling drivers that extra bit of light might make you easier to see

But each to their own. :-D. After all people drive into the back of the great big impact protection vehicles they use on the motorway with the 20 ft keep right arrow high intensity strobes and led beacons at the rate of about one every 2 weeks (iirc) the other year according to highways agency statistics
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Old 12-08-2013   #25
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Re: Light Problem

Quote Originally Posted by llanrads View Post
Sorry mate i do not agree with you. I do not believe that using these daylights on days such as today will increase visibility to reduce the risk of an accident.
Not sure what sort of day you have ATM, but I know ATM here they're being beneficial.

Sooner they can't be switched off the better, if only so those who don't now how to correctly use their vehicles light are illuminated in rain etc.
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Re: Light Problem

Quote Originally Posted by Most Easterly Pandas View Post
Not sure what sort of day you have ATM, but I know ATM here they're being beneficial.

Sooner they can't be switched off the better, if only so those who don't now how to correctly use their vehicles light are illuminated in rain etc.
See your point on that issue, i too have experienced these people who like to drive without lights in torrential rain and dark clouds.
But even then isn't it only the front lights are on and not the rear which would mean that these people still won,t get seen.

Anyway i certainly have learnt something since my first question on how my driving lights came on and found some interesting reading and opinions.
Long live the Forum

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Old 12-08-2013   #27
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Re: Light Problem

Quote Originally Posted by llanrads View Post
See your point on that issue, i too have experienced these people who like to drive without lights in torrential rain and dark clouds.
But even then isn't it only the front lights are on and not the rear which would mean that these people still won,t get seen.

Anyway i certainly have learnt something since my first question on how my driving lights came on and found some interesting reading and opinions.
Long live the Forum

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You can't help the real Muppets short of taking their licence off them with the lights on at the front and not the back think of the closing speed on a a road been of 120 mph ish head on..... If your closing on a vehicle doing 40 your only closing at 20 mph
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Re: Light Problem

Got a reply from VOSA Long story short, the naysayers are correct, and I'm gong to go have a big slice of humble pie. I may even have several infact

Here's the deal. The IVA Inspection manual (Individual vehicle approval) for passenger cars, is not the MOT manual.... and the MOT manual has absolutely no requirement for these lights, unless they are of the dim-dip variety (i.e. it's the same bulb as headlights/sidelights, operated at a different intensity)

So, the E.U. come up with this DRL rule, we as a member are expected to comply with it... so we introduce an amendment to the IVA (i.e. the type approval) for cars to say they must be fitted, operational, yadda yadda - we even amend RVLR (why ?) to state how they must operate, then in the MOT inspection manual we make them optional

No wonder motorists are getting f****ed every, single, day !

Anyways, links and text:

Inspection Manual

Position Lamps

"Additional or optional lamps are not included in the inspection."
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Old 15-08-2013   #29
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Re: Light Problem

Quote Originally Posted by cjdl View Post
Got a reply from VOSA Long story short, the naysayers are correct, and I'm gong to go have a big slice of humble pie. I may even have several infact

Here's the deal. The IVA Inspection manual (Individual vehicle approval) for passenger cars, is not the MOT manual.... and the MOT manual has absolutely no requirement for these lights, unless they are of the dim-dip variety (i.e. it's the same bulb as headlights/sidelights, operated at a different intensity)

So, the E.U. come up with this DRL rule, we as a member are expected to comply with it... so we introduce an amendment to the IVA (i.e. the type approval) for cars to say they must be fitted, operational, yadda yadda - we even amend RVLR (why ?) to state how they must operate, then in the MOT inspection manual we make them optional

No wonder motorists are getting f****ed every, single, day !

Anyways, links and text:

Inspection Manual

Position Lamps

"Additional or optional lamps are not included in the inspection."
Mmmm pie :P
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Old 15-08-2013   #30
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Re: Light Problem

@cjdl big respect, most on here wouldn't have come back with that
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