I am not too clear on this petrol nonsense - will petrol stations still be able to, and indeed actually, sell the usual E5 95 octane. I heard that in France the E5 and E10 is available.

fourbie said:

I am not too clear on this petrol nonsense - will petrol stations still be able to, and indeed actually, sell the usual E5 95 octane. I heard that in France the E5 and E10 is available.

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In the UK, the usual 95 octane E5 is history.

According to Autoexpress:

"In the UK E10 will not be offered alongside E5 unleaded at the same forecourt, though - once a fuel station has switched to E10, standard E5 will no longer be available there. Motorists whose cars aren’t compatible with E10 will still be able to purchase E5 petrol in super-unleaded form, though, with the DfT confirming the UK will maintain a supply of this fuel."

So if you want E5, you'll have to purchase super unleaded (some of which, confusingly, although labelled as E5, is actually E0).

A lot of retail outlets, notably some supermarkets, have now stopped selling E5 altogether.

I predict the price differential for super unleaded E5 is going to get a lot bigger.

If you are going to run on E10, the one change I'd recommend is to fit iridium plugs, if you haven't already.

jrkitching said:

In the UK, the usual 95 octane E5 is history.


I predict the price differential for super unleaded E5 is going to get a lot bigger.

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My motor is meant to run on 98 octane and I have done so for year and it is a more expensive fuel. To get it means a 40 minute drive as local petrol outlets do not have it - I have to find Esso or Mobil for it.
I am having to recall if the 98 is the super unleaded. Sometimes I would put 95 in a part tank.
Because I cannot use E10 in that motor I expect I will use 98 in my Panda.
A new Tesco is being built so I assume it will not sell 95.
I was in Grimsby a month or so ago at a Morrisons and they had E10 and 95.

It would be useful, but not to me, as it is an hour on the road if when they stop 95 that they put 98 in a 95 pump.

I am concerned as my motors are elderly that this could be a nightmare.

I read that peeps whose cars are able to take E10 are actually having trouble.
This government seems unable to understand the concept of phasing things in gently.
For example to suddenly raise the retiring age for those close to it is disastrous for some.

There is no reason to think a new station will not have E5 premium/super unleaded pumps , A new Shell station opened near me on the 28th August, it has E5 premium at every filling pump (x12), although weirdly the pump handle is marked as E10 but the pump information states E5 98/99 Octane. I brought it up with the manager as it causes confusion, so hopefully something will be done about it.

Phasing it in - having E7.5 for a year or two?

I don't suppose the petrol station owners would have any interest in installing separate E5 95 octane pumps. The vast majority of petrol cars on the road will run on E10, so there's no profit in installing new pumps for a dwindling number of old cars. They would be better off installing electric charging points instead.

fourbie said:

My motor is meant to run on 98 octane and I have done so for year and it is a more expensive fuel. To get it means a 40 minute drive as local petrol outlets do not have it - I have to find Esso or Mobil for it.
I am having to recall if the 98 is the super unleaded. Sometimes I would put 95 in a part tank.
Because I cannot use E10 in that motor I expect I will use 98 in my Panda.
A new Tesco is being built so I assume it will not sell 95.
I was in Grimsby a month or so ago at a Morrisons and they had E10 and 95.

It would be useful, but not to me, as it is an hour on the road if when they stop 95 that they put 98 in a 95 pump.

I am concerned as my motors are elderly that this could be a nightmare.

I read that peeps whose cars are able to take E10 are actually having trouble.
This government seems unable to understand the concept of phasing things in gently.
For example to suddenly raise the retiring age for those close to it is disastrous for some.

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Hi. With respect you are indeed getting yourself totally confused. Hopefully this will help clarify.

95, or indeed 97, 98 or 99 refers to the RON of the fuel. 95 being the standard fuel and the 97-99 range being the super fuel.

E5 and E10 refers to the percentage of ethanol in the fuel - which by the way should be thought of as an 'up to' amount...E5 will have up to 5% ethanol (so might have non at all) and E10 will have up to 10% ethanol in.

As JR points out your two choices are now likely to be 95RON E10 or 97-99RON E5, with the 95RON E10 being by far the biggest selling your new Tesco being built will undoubtedly be selling it. The Morrisons in Grimsby didn't have E10 AND 95, it's the same fuel.

You have posted this in the Panda 2003-2012 section, thereby I assume you own such a car. All petrol Fiat Panda from 2001 are able to run on E10 fuel. Although please confirm for yourself on the GOV website.

You report of reading about issues people are having using E10. E10 has been progressively on sale in many parts of Europe since 2009. I would therefore think that the fuel is not the issue but that they had existing or underlying issues with their car.

MN500 said:

Hi. With respect you are indeed getting yourself totally confused. Hopefully this will help clarify.

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I did say I have a Panda though not in so many words.
Also I knew it will run on E10.
I also knew E10 has been on sale in Europe.
There have been numerous reports of cars that ran fine on E5 95 have spluttering or other little problems when on E10 95.

Also I understand about the octane number and that 95 had 5% bio and now 10% bio. The 10% bio will knock the 95 octane rating down to about 94 octane.

BTW my Panda will likely sit for many months unused - E10 is safe for doing that is it??

My recollection is not wonderful as it is about a month ago but my other half is adamant that wherever we got fuel from (and again she is adamant it was a Morrisons) in or around the Grimsby area it had E10 stickers on one pump and E5 on another.
You are right - although I am a little hazy over the fuel names I think I understood that the 5 and the 10 refer to the nasty bio additive.

My real problem is that in the vehicle that I have to use 98 octane which you might be interested to know is a Mitsubishi GDI it is a 40 minute drive to get it. If the new Tesco won't sell it then I am no better situated.

Finally I love electric motors from RC cars, cordless drills to whatever but I am not convinced about electric cars one little bit.

TagSouth said:

Phasing it in - having E7.5 for a year or two?

I don't suppose the petrol station owners would have any interest in installing separate E5 95 octane pumps. The vast majority of petrol cars on the road will run on E10, so there's no profit in installing new pumps for a dwindling number of old cars. They would be better off installing electric charging points instead.

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In my mind I was thinking that perhaps one of the existing pumps could be retained for 95 (I refer to E5 95/94) unless of course they only have one (underground) tank.

I am running it in my panda. Cheapest Morrison's

fine so for

no modifications, no fancy spark plugs

Any problems, I will report back

I run a couple of old cars and have been using only super-grade 97+ RON fuel in them for a few years now. I find it's only the small fuel stations that don't sell it.

All super-grade 97+ petrol is remaining E5... for now. It's a government mandate that all standard 95 fuel must be E10.

Esso Synergy Supreme+ 99 is apparently ethanol free, but only in certain parts of GB. NOT Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England or Scotland. Here it's up to 5% ethanol, but it's all labeled as E5

I don't have any qualms about putting E10 in the Panda. There are suggestions it goes off quicker, and there might be a slight drop in economy, but I'd imagine jrk is right; the expensive stuff will only get increasingly expensive.

Any of the 169 petrols will run fine on 95 E10. The guidelines and vosa information have been quite clear. Any vaguely modern ECU will be able to sort any timing and fueling changes out in a tank or two. Only worry if the car is older than about 2000 because the rubber in the fuel system tends not to like ethanol.

The vosa checker is quite clear about what cars will be OK and what won't. I'd suggest that anyone in any doubt try there rather than being the 1000th thread starter on the subject.

rmjbn1 said:

Esso Synergy Supreme+ 99 is apparently ethanol free, but only in certain parts of GB. NOT Devon, Cornwall, North Wales, North England or Scotland. Here it's up to 5% ethanol, but it's all labelled as E5

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This is part of the problem I suppose.

That is the fuel I use for my main ride.

Yes the cost is a point but I need to run the car that uses it for up to another ten years.

I might change to another 4x4 before then but the Pajero is a very hard act to follow. This is my second, I have owned a lot of 4x4s over the years and I love the Mitsy - even more so since I moved here.

I admit I am tempted by a Panda 4x4 especially as I have a Dynamic just now and I am getting to know the Panda.

I was a Suzuki fanatic for decades from about 1986 but they have gone off the boil for me.

fourbie said:

In my mind I was thinking that perhaps one of the existing pumps could be retained for 95 (I refer to E5 95/94) unless of course they only have one (underground) tank.

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I think the whole point was to move to more environmentally friendly fuels and for the few people still trundling about in 20+ year old cars, give them a little push to update to something that is compatible with E10 but is also likely a lot more clean to run.

I don’t even run petrol cars but virtually every garage i come across has there own version of at very least super unleaded but also more and more ‘super’-diesel fuels.

2019 Panda 4x4 cannot be driven in eco mode with e5 as there is no ability to go up hills. What I wonder is this going to achieve if I have to run in power mode any savings are long gone.

rmjbn1 said:

It's a government mandate that all standard 95 fuel must be E10.

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All standard 95 fuel must be labelled E10; IIRC the new regulations mean that it must now contain at least 5.5% ethanol, up to a maximum of 10%. There is no minimum ethanol content for fuel labelled E5.

Part of the problem for those with specific fuel reqirements is the lack of transparancy about what's actually in a particular batch of fuel. Those classic owners whose fuel systems simply cannot tolerate any ethanol at all have to test the fuel before putting it into the tank.

fourbie said:

BTW my Panda will likely sit for many months unused - E10 is safe for doing that is it??

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No, it isn't. Neither is E5, but E10 will be worse.

My understanding is that fuels containing ethanol are so unstable in storage that the ethanol is only added to the delivery tanker as the fuel is about to leave the refinery.

The storage problem is a big issue for plant and equipment users; your lawnmower is likely less able to use E10 than your car.

It's not difficult to remove most of the ethanol from the fuel, but there are environmental issues (how are you going to dispose of the waste?) and you're going to be throwing 10% of it away.

fourbie said:

The 10% bio will knock the 95 octane rating down to about 94 octane.

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The refinery will blend the fuel so that the minimum octane rating of the finished product is maintained at 95.

rmjbn1 said:

I run a couple of old cars and have been using only super-grade 97+ RON fuel in them for a few years now. I find it's only the small fuel stations that don't sell it.

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That seems to be changing. Some supermarket chains are dropping super unleaded completely (ASDA is certainly one), perhaps they are concerned about offending environmentalist food shoppers?

Decronium said:

I'd suggest that anyone in any doubt try there rather than being the 1000th thread starter on the subject.

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I did this right at the beginning so I knew ages ago that my GDI was at risk and that my Panda was able to take the fuel. While under covid restrictions I was unable to get to a fuel station but still needed to drive to the supermarket to get food.

for the few people still trundling about in 20+ year old cars, give them a little push to update to something that is compatible with E10 but is also likely a lot more clean to run.

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I often hear this argument and find it a little disparaging. There are reasons for keeping with an older motor and I confess I keep mine and have done for up to 26 years. I will never be able to afford an electric car for example.

It's more about the rubber and the fact the ethanol will rot the older rubber and cause condensation (Therefore corrosion in the fuel system) as its more hygroscopic. Older cars can be manually tweeked if they run roughly on it but I bet this will be minorand rare. People need to stop moaning about how it's ruining their lives (You read some threads and it's like some people have had all their skittles stolen) and deal with it.

There is no reason an older car cannot stay on the road with the new fuel. Either use the super which is staying e5, change out the old rubber parts (As I recently had to do with an MGB) or use a stabiliser fluid like you would have with a lead supplement 25 years ago when they got rid of 4 star. That was much more of a change and yet seemed to cause far less fuss.

Decronium said:

Either use the super which is staying e5, change out the old rubber parts (As I recently had to do with an MGB) or use a stabiliser fluid like you would have with a lead supplement 25 years ago when they got rid of 4 star. That was much more of a change and yet seemed to cause far less fuss.

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Changing the rubbers is the problem. I was aware of that solution.
My point was I can't access super unleaded easily.
Which fuel stabiliser would you suggest.

Never used one myself. Apparently Sta-bil available from frost is regarded as adequate. Seems that its not that widely available as you would think.... Hmmmm

Trick will be to not keep e10 round too long. It goes off really quick

If you have a classic which needs a stable E0 petrol, you can buy it in drums - the shelf life is measured in years, not weeks. But at somewhere in the region of £4-£5 per litre, it isn't cheap.

There are also a small number of garages which still sell 4 star leaded petrol. Once again, this isn't a cheap option.