Peugeot Fiat

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Peugeot Fiat

AndyRKett

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Just announced on the radio, Fiat are to merge with Peugeot.... who now also own Vauxhall....

Will this mean a stripping of Fiat’s Italian flair. Will all future Fiat’s be boring Peugeot clones with a different badge... will it spell the end of the fiat brand as Peugeot reduce the number of fiat cars in favour of alfa and Maserati?

I don’t believe this is a good thing, but then again was fiat facing a very difficult future without the development of modern tech as they currently have no mass market hybrid or electric drive train.

The other question is could it mean a revival for brands like Lancia, remembering that Europe is still full of Lancias and Peugeot has problems selling big luxury cars having a brand like Lancia to go head to head with the likes of bmw or mercedes might be a good move. The French after all are quite good at making luxurious cars.
 
This is only 'negotiations'

They have been 'collaborating' with vans and mpv's since @2000.


Yes they have viable hybrid tech.

But no great market outside of Europe.

They would be buying into a group with manufacturimg plants throughout the Americas.
(There is even a Maserati production line..)

Have to agree that it will probably mean a major shake.up.

Could be shared UK dealerships.. oh hang on.

My punto warranty work was attempted by a bloke with 'chevrons' on his overalls..
 
This is only 'negotiations'

Nope, it’s now agreed, Peugeot and Fiat are to merge.

Vauxhall fears after car giants Fiat and PSA announce merger https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50246329

I appreciate what your are saying, they collaborate and they have dealerships in the uk that share brands, however things will be very different if peugeot have the ability to tell fiat what they can and can’t make.

It may mean a new Punto or new fiat 500 it may mean cheaper cars or it may be they shut up Fiat’s operations as there is too much overlap with their current brands and line ups. Or they start sticking a fiat badge on the new corsa which already comes in an electric option.

I think Fiat will loose the essence of ‘fiat’
 
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I'm optimistic about this, Peugeot had a track record in the 80's and 90's of making some very cool small cars, and we know Fiat love a cool small car. Peugeot these days seem to be steering away from the small car market, so they may position Fiat in the city car segment, and focus on Punto/Tipo size cars for the Peugeot brand.
I'd be happy with that.
 
As with all these things it depends on how they do it.

PSA seem reasonably successful in drawing lines between brands so far. You certainly couldn't get into a C3 and confuse it for the old 208 and there are some things that point to a degree of freedom within the marques themselves (e.g. new corsa has physical heating controls, Psa tend to have them on a screen).

However the chances of any engine or gearbox diversity is 0%, same would go for chassis where they tend to currently avoid overlap by setting it up at the far ends of the spectrum (DS Hard, Peugeot middle ground ,Citroen waterbed) and where the other marques fall into that if they want to occupy the same market.
 
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Hopefully, PSA have the sense to maintain the Fiat brand and character but I'm not optimistic. It took 30 years for them to appreciate the value of the Citroen brand.

But, like it or not, electric cars are on the way and when that happens the bottom will drop out of the engine (ICE) car market. When they know electrics are imminent, people will hold off buying a new ICE for a year or two and go straight to electric.

VW have to clear the cloud of their diesel scandal so have a very strong interest in going lekky.

Tesla, which is a battery company that also makes cars, has no ICE heritage to worry about and they are already well ahead. "Ordinary" brand electric cars are not yet doing what Tesla was up to in 2013 so there is a huge gap to fill.

Tesla also has a huge market lead so the likes of PSA need to extract digits ASAP. Ford, GM, Merc, are not even bothering themselves with such things. BMW have a few electric cars but they are not really trying to sell them.
 
If PSA have any clue they'll let Fiat take care of the A-Segment.


The current PSA-A cars are awful, anybody with a fondness for Toyota would be totally ashamed by the Aygo variant.


Interior metal bodywork is a farce to me, the Italians would never let poor design like that prevail in this day and age, even if it was an iconic part of the 50's 500 - they replicated it tastefully using plastic thank god.


If PSA let Fiat do what they do best, and it benefits their A-segment cars in the future it can only be good IMO. Together, they are definitely the more stylish end of the continent and willing to make some funky looking car designs - that alone will be interesting to see unfold.
 
I think it suffers from an issue that afflicts a lot of platform shares.

The underpinnings were designed to go under a 12 grand car, they are largely unchanged when placed under a 40 grand car. What is acceptable at one price point is not at the other.

No matter how much you quilt the leather or LED jewellery you fit it's still a cheap car dressed up.
 
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The new Citroen (sorry) DS badged lekky car does not come out very well and Johnny is trying to be fair.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzqzZqSWRNs

That thing is a beauty. If and when I ever get to the point where I have that much money to burn on a car, I hope DS are truly building luxury cars then. I can see nwo it's dressed up cheap but if they can pull off what VAG has done with Audi and Skodas sharing platforms then they should be in luck profitably and reputation wise! The average consumer doesn't seem to care!
 
Lets face it, it's what Fiat needs. With exception of the 500 which is now an old platform that they've flogged to death they haven't had a really popular mainstream car since the Grande Punto :devil:.

The 500 was built on the 2003 panda platform, the latest 500L and 500x were built on the small wide platform which was derived from the Grande Punto. So in what you’re saying not only have they not had a popular mainstream car since the Grande, I think it’s actually their newest platform.... 14+ years old.

Fiat need something new, they are so stale it’s laughable. The future though is likely to be a load of rebadged Citroens and Peugeots.

If they did apply a VAG style hierarchy then it’s highly likely Fiat, like Seat would be at the bottom. Which could very well mean very boring cars from Fiat in the future
 
The 500 was built on the 2003 panda platform, the latest 500L and 500x were built on the small wide platform which was derived from the Grande Punto. So in what you’re saying not only have they not had a popular mainstream car since the Grande, I think it’s actually their newest platform.... 14+ years old.



Fiat need something new, they are so stale it’s laughable. The future though is likely to be a load of rebadged Citroens and Peugeots.



If they did apply a VAG style hierarchy then it’s highly likely Fiat, like Seat would be at the bottom. Which could very well mean very boring cars from Fiat in the future



And it’d still have more style than a high end Audi ;-)
 
PSA seem to do the badge hierarchy thing backwards though.

Probably not intentionally but because of heavy parts sharing they tend to make sense at the cheap end.

We went from a DS3 to C3 which are both a PSA PF1 platforms.

I've made no secret of my hatred DS3 (partly due to the 1.6 d which I suspect is decent candidate for the worst mass market engine of all time) but mainly because the best part of the car was looking at it.

They didn't used to hide the cheap bits well enough in the interior and the driving experience was fairly similar to s light van. The overall effect ending up being a bit massive chandelier in a council flat.

We then through no choice of mine went to a C3 and it's a decent car for the money, the DS3 with 2 options was over 17k (2014 prices they've gone up a lot) and was only a mid spec car, C3 came in top spec for 14 (2017).

At that price point it makes more sense, it's still not the best car ever made but when a similarly fast and well equipped Polo or Fiesta would struggle to be under 20k it seems a fair trade. It's even been reliable:confused:
 
Not very often I agree with SB1500, but knowing that they're basically the same platforms underneath, I'd much rather be seen in a SEAT or Skoda than a VW or Audi. It'll be the same when this merger starts to produce platform shared models, I'd much rather be seen in a FIAT than a Citroen/Peugeot.
 
Not very often I agree with SB1500, but knowing that they're basically the same platforms underneath, I'd much rather be seen in a SEAT or Skoda than a VW or Audi. It'll be the same when this merger starts to produce platform shared models, I'd much rather be seen in a FIAT than a Citroen/Peugeot.

I always thought the Skoda / Seat buyers got the better deal. Albeit with a few rougher plastic trim panels inside perhaps, but the same engines and other components throughout when it came to VAG.


I think Citroen can make some ugly cars, just like Fiat, but admire that they really push the limits with their original designs. Peugeot's have gotten a lot nicer looking in the current / next generation designs too IMO. Even in a worst case scenario where Fiat's technology goes out the window (which surely it won't?) I reckon their design team will be allowed to continue to reign free.


They seem to have maintained the Corsa's 'Vauxhall family' aesthetic whilst taking it forward just a bit having looked at the latest concepts / renders. At least they threw out the GM parts! Lol
 
The biggest question is what each party brought to the table, likely FCA had their jeep division access to American markets and luxury brands. Peugeot has the ability to build cars in much bigger bulk than fiat, they also have the hybrid and electric technologies that FCA don’t.

What Peugeot don’t need is another cheap car brand that competes in the A-B-C sectors.

Simply put Peugeot may not be interested in doing anything with fiat, where as FCA are interested in what the technology can bring to their American market cars. This could potentially leave fiat floundering in the middle of the two companies with very little support, or investment.

A note about how VAG works, 10-15 years ago you could see the same dials and buttons in a Skoda as an Audi and they did have similar engines, interiors etc.

These days and over the last 10 years VAG have worked hard to differentiate the different brands. Seat is fine if you want a cheap car that does the job. Skoda is no longer cheap and prices are similar to VW but the quality of parts used in Skoda re diliberately designed to look cheaper and more “low res” the newer VWs are getting very expensive and even a polo can easily set you back £18k they are well build and use top technologies from last seasons audis.

The interior of Audi’s no longer look anything like any of the other brands cars. They realised people buying a car at £10k more don’t want a car that looks and feels exactly the same. They also use the latest tech, and contrary to popular belief engines are not always the same even though seeming it on paper, they put in extra refinements like balance shafts to reduce engine noise and vibrations. Which while seeming more fancy has the added problems often associated with complexity and new tech, things break and go wrong.

Once tried and tested technology filters down, for example the lastest seats have similar tech to my 4 year old golf, where as the latest golf 8 comes with tech found recently in Audi’s.

The difference between a DS and a Citroen is minimal, a DS tends to have more style in appearance but everything else is the same. In this respect, peugeot/Citroen are in the same place VAG were 10 - 15 years ago.
 
We clearly have too many big manufacturers of cars. Some will have to go and the electric car revolution will only exacerbate the issues. Tesla coming along has accelerated if not caused the change and are here to stay. The many commentators who say things will change when Big Auto catches up are plain wrong.

Tesla has caused another iPhone moment. They do no paid-for advertising but are always in the news. Mrs Jones goes out and buys a £50,000 BM-Merc-Audi-Dub and nobody cares other than thinking rich ***. Mrs Jones goes out and buys a Tesla for £35,000 and everyone wants one.

You don't have to be a fan-boy to see that Tesla is cleaning up the value end of the market - exactly where the profit is. Big Auto are at least 5 years behind the technology so will take a pounding. Audi come close with the E-Tron. But look at the silly money price and it's still more of the same old same with an electric power. And - you can't get one because they only build a few hundred. Citroen/DS have launched an electric SUV. But who would have that over a Model 3 especially as the Tesla will hold it's value long term.

VW have to cleanse the dirty diesel image (fair or not) so they will rapidly electrify. However, their example from Audi does not bode well. Too expensive and too boring.


The only chance for Fiat is to rapidly electrify it's small cars to compete in the smaller end of the market. Unfortunately, the time is NOW and the silence of is deafening.
 
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We clearly have too many big manufacturers of cars. Some will have to go and the electric car revolution will only exacerbate the issues. Tesla coming along has accelerated if not caused the change and are here to stay. The many commentators who say things will change when Big Auto catches up are plain wrong.

Tesla has caused another iPhone moment. They do no paid-for advertising but are always in the news. Mrs Jones goes out and buys a £50,000 BM-Merc-Audi-Dub and nobody cares other than thinking rich ***. Mrs Jones goes out and buys a Tesla for £35,000 and everyone wants one.

You don't have to be a fan-boy to see that Tesla is cleaning up the value end of the market - exactly where the profit is. Big Auto are at least 5 years behind the technology so will take a pounding. Audi come close with the E-Tron. But look at the silly money price and it's still more of the same old same with an electric power. And - you can't get one because they only build a few hundred. Citroen/DS have launched an electric SUV. But who would have that over a Model 3 especially as the Tesla will hold it's value long term.

VW have to cleanse the dirty diesel image (fair or not) so they will rapidly electrify. However, their example from Audi does not bode well. Too expensive and too boring.


The only chance for Fiat is to rapidly electrify it's small cars to compete in the smaller end of the market. Unfortunately, the time is NOW and the silence of is deafening.



They’re definitely working on something and I’d say there’s a high chance PSA have had a preview of it. I think that’s why they’ve not really invested in their ICE as much as we’d expect from Fiat.

That Centoventi concept was radically exciting, practical, small and innovative. Fiat at its best. Of course, now they’ve the task of actually delivering. But even VAG have had an issue delivering in the electric department until recently.

Only time can tell I suppose.

Even if electric isn’t the solution ultimately (just like diesel wasn’t) I think the bulk of consumers already have it in their head that it is and various grants / marketing will make it so in the next decade.
 
That Centoventi concept was radically exciting, practical, small and innovative. Fiat at its best. Of course, now they’ve the task of actually delivering. But even VAG have had an issue delivering in the electric department until recently.
To date VAG have invested somewhere between $20-30Bn in electric cars.

While fiat previewed a concept car, there was nothing to suggest it actually worked as a car given it was a static display at a motor show.

The idea was good and would make a adequat replacement to the panda in the future, but fiat really don’t have the technology to make it work, or at least they didn’t. With Peugeot they have access to technology they did not have before. However even then they are hugely behind the likes of tesla in terms of technology, and with the massive investments VAG have made they are likely to be hugely behind them as well. With Peugeot only recently acquiring Vaxhaull and fiat investing heavily in alfa and maseriti, there may not be much money left in the pot of either company to launch a Long term plan to electrify the range.

Fiat have a long history of concept cars never making it to marking, in this instance I think the Centoventi is likely to join those ranks. That is to say I’d wager the Centoventi never sees production.

The best move forward at the moment would be a new Punto based on the same platform as the new corsa/208 but bear in mind that the new e-corsa is still over £21,000 in basic spec.

This price is getting on for what the top spec 500x cost so the profit margins on small electric cars is going to be very tight and may mean they are not worth while. It could effectively kill super minis for the time being.
 
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