General Power loss

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General Power loss

Daveof49

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Jul 29, 2010
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I am having trouble with my 1.9 8V Croma.

Whenever I start to ascend a hill I lose all power.

When I am on a motorway cannot get beyond 60-70 mph on the flat and then power loss when starting to climb a hill.

Seem to have lost that 'pull' when at 2-2500 rpm.

I have just stripped and cleaned the EGR and put a new air filter in which seems to have helped a bit (wishfull thinking maybe !) but still no real power increase.

Anyone got any ideas what may be happening?
 
S130. All your suggestions sound quite terminal.

Had a turbo go on a Renault Laguna some years ago and the drop in power came with a lot of black sooty smoke from the exhaust. This doesn't feel the same - hopefully it isn't the turbo. Also it has just passed the MOT without any problems (first time ever). I would have thought the emissions would have been affected if the turbo was failing.

Don't know how to check fuel pressure, sounds like a session at my local garage.:(

g8rpi - I thought I was hearing a 'clacking' sound whilst on the motorway the other day but put it down to road noise. Car is used every day. I have the free version of Multiscan but as there are no management lights on so haven't connected it yet.

Thanks for your suggestions both. I will try to check the suggestions you have made the best I can before I get my garage to look it over.
 
S130. All your suggestions sound quite terminal.

Had a turbo go on a Renault Laguna some years ago and the drop in power came with a lot of black sooty smoke from the exhaust. This doesn't feel the same - hopefully it isn't the turbo. Also it has just passed the MOT without any problems (first time ever). I would have thought the emissions would have been affected if the turbo was failing.

Only a failed/failing turbo is going to be expensive and certainly not terminal unless the turbo vanes break off and get ingested.

You old Laguna would not have had a DPF filter like the Croma so any evidence of oil burn/soot/etc would be far more obvious.

Regarding MOT emissions then these are done on an unloaded engine (with the exception of the rev testing which is not the same a trying to push a heavy car against all the rolling and wind resistances.

Talking of DPF - A clogged DPF filter, or any obstruction in the exhaust system will seriously affect performance. I should have listed this possibility as well n my previous post. If you are not the original owner of the car then it is possible that some mods / dpf delete / ...... have been not done properly?
 
Thanks all for your thoughts.

Is the fuel filter easy to change? The reason I ask is that I have done a lot on petrol car engines in the past but modern diesels make me a bit wary, especially without a Haynes manual to hand.

g8rpi - I am based in south Birmingham.

Can you advise on what is the correct interface to use with MES and do I need the full paid version to read the fuel pressure? I Had some trouble connecting to the ECU last time I tried my version then it timed out.
 
<SNIP>
g8rpi - I am based in south Birmingham.

Can you advise on what is the correct interface to use with MES and do I need the full paid version to read the fuel pressure? I Had some trouble connecting to the ECU last time I tried my version then it timed out.


Hi,
A good USB ELM e27 interface is best. You don't need an adaptor or licenced version of MES to access the engine data. The "free" version will time out after 20 minutes, just re-start it.

Some of the cheap, <£10 interfaces have a design problem (120 ohm resistor between pins 6 and 14) that can stop them connecting. This one works and has adaptors for ABS / Airbag etc.
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-Fiat-Alfa-EL...dapters-Diagnostics-Multiecuscan/282526378637
so does
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fits-Fiat-Alfa-E...cables-for-use-with-MULTIECUSCAN/201357279123

Paying for the MES licence is a good idea in any case as it keeps updates coming.


Robert G8RPI.
 
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Hi Dave, top tip for anything power related is to first of all unplug the maf and see if that cures the problem.

If not plug it back and ignore the check engine warning light for now (assuming it wasn't on already of course).

Then blank the egr valve completely see if that cures the problem (again ignoring the check engine light for now).

I'll be under the bonnet of my 8v this morning and I'll double check the fuel filter removal but from memory the hardest part is unplugging the fuel leads and then very very very gently tapping the plastic retaining ring with a large flat headed screwdriver and small mallet. The ring will be brittle so whatever you do don't break it.

I'm having a lot of trouble starting mine so I'm going to check the fuel filter on mine just in case. It hasn't done a lot of miles but was parked up for a while Nd apparently biodiesel can have issues with bacterial growth (!) so might as well check that whilst I'm at it.
 
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Is the fuel filter easy to change? The reason I ask is that I have done a lot on petrol car engines in the past but modern diesels make me a bit wary, especially without a Haynes manual to hand.

Basically yes but can sometimes prove difficult to get the filter canister top ring nut undone.

Anyway procedure is this:

1) Drain the filter. On the bottom of the filter is a small round tap. Place a jar underneath or attach a tube to the tap spout. If you are luck the tap spout will be covered by a yellow rubber cover with a tab on the end. Just pull off downwards and replace when you are done. I say lucky because often garages don't put the cover back.

2) You can now release the quick release fuel lines to the top of the canister. These will spill some diesel so have a clean cloth to hand. I drain excess into a jar and then tie the lines up in the air with their heads high.

3) You will note that the fuel lines are clipped to the bulkhead above the canister. You need to unclip these and move the hoses out of the way.

4) You can how lift the canister out of the metal cradle that supports and surrounds it.

5) Remove the top ring nut and list off the lid. Note filter element and 'O' ring positions.

6) Fit new filter element and do not over tighten the ring nut. Good hand tight is all the is required. Ensure drain tap is closed.

7) Put everything back and before reinserting the quick release fuel lines ensure the ends a clean and free from dirt, grit etc.

The top ring run could be the only thing that could cause you a little hassle.

Three methods I've used successfully are (assuming you don't by the proper wring nut wrench:

1) Super grip clean rubber gripper gloves (Toolstation, Screwfix)
2) Oil filter chain wrench
3) Wide flat blade screwdriver and small hammer

A decent way of holding the canister is also required. Second pair of hands, vice, workmate for 1) and 2)

For 3) a firm flat surface and second pair of hands or a vice / workmate. For 3) you use the flat blade of the screw driver located against and behind one of the ribs on the ring nut and *gently* tap the ring nut loose.

Last point. After refitting then just turn the ignition on and do not attempt to start the car. Allow the system to prime and self bleed and leave like this for a good couple of minutes whilst looking for any fuel leeks.
 
Also there's an electrical connector on it that needs to be unclipped.
 
Thanks all for your thoughts.

Is the fuel filter easy to change? The reason I ask is that I have done a lot on petrol car engines in the past but modern diesels make me a bit wary, especially without a Haynes manual to hand.

<SNIP>


There is a special tool to open and close the fuel filter housing. Random ebay example (choose your own supplier)
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Laser-Tools-Fuel...uxhall-Opel-Citroen-Fiat-Peugeot/181880153890
Remove the housing as S130 described then use the tool to open the housing.
Using other methods like straps can damage the housing on opening nd even worse leaks on reassembly - leaks from the filter have caused fires so it's important to use the correct tool unless you are suitably skilled and prepared to take the risks of not using it.


Robert G8RPI.
 
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There is a special tool to open and close the fuel filter housing. Random ebay example (choose your own supplier)
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Laser-Tools-Fuel...uxhall-Opel-Citroen-Fiat-Peugeot/181880153890
Remove the housing as S130 described then use the tool to open the housing.
Using other methods like straps can damage the housing on opening nd even worse leaks on reassembly - leaks from the filter have caused fires so it's important to use the correct tool unless you are suitably skilled and prepared to take the risks of not using it.


Robert G8RPI.

Robert is quite correct and the right tool for the job is generally an essential approach. Other methods require extreme care/caution.

The Croma diesel filter ring nut is designed to be manually tightened and un-tightened. Sadly some (either from factory or after garage services) go beyond hand tightness removal.

On my Croma which I had for over 10 years I only had to resort to methods I mentioned, not using a proper tool, just the once. Once I had done the filter replacement and sensitively hand tightened the ring nut I could always remove it by hand at every service and never had any leak issues.

I have over the years purchased all the specialist tools for servicing my Fiats. The diesel fuel filter ring spanner is NOT one such item as in my case care, feel and sensitivity released the ring nut.

Half the issues with this ring nut is that garages use the ring nut spanner to not only undo the ring nut but also to tighten it and in doing so the monkeys over tighten an item that should be only hand tight. Hence subsequent difficulties in undoing them. Classic untrained / un-sensitive monkey wrench issues.
 
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Hi Brian.

Excuse my ignorance but when you say blank the EGR, can you explain what this means and how to do carry this out. Having just stripped and cleaned the EGR I cannot visualise what this means.

When the weather allows it I will look to changing the fuel filter but if the filter is clogged surely the starting would be effected. It starts normally, by this I mean it starts as it has always done, no different and as I said at the beginning it runs ok under town driving, hardy notice there is a problem.

Might try to see if I can connect with MES tomorrow weather and time permitting.
 
Hi Dave, when I was diagnosing the egr problems on mine years ago with the help of people on here it involved trimming a soup tin lid (please don't all scream at once :) ) into the shape of one of the gaskets and drilling 2 holes for the bolts to go through.

I then replaced the existing gasket with the temporary soup tin gasket and cured the problem. Note that the check engine light will come on immediately due to insufficient gas reflow. Don't worry about that, it will clear itself after 3 restarts with the original gaskets in place or via mes.

On the shortest run possible check that your problem has been solved and then remove the piece of tin immediately. If it breaks whilst fitted you will ruin your engine.

If you are happy that your existing egr was clean then you'll need to change it.
also buy a proper swirl mod or bullet hole gasket and use that in future. You need one with some holes but only the minimum to keep the check engine light off.

If you've got heavier gauge metal than tin use that to test but don't be tempted to drill the bullet holes yourself unless you are very confident that you've got all the metal and swarf out. The proper ones only cost a few pounds off ebay and can even be ordered from a fiat dealer if you are feeling particularly wealthy.

Some people used to blank the egr completely and get the message blanked out via software. Maybe someone could confirm whether that would be an mot fail if spotted?
 
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When my original egr failed it was most noticeable going uphill to begin with and gradually got worse.

The engine "stuttered" around 1800 to 2000 revs and then seemed to carry on ok. Over time it got worse to the point where the dealer said they couldn't repair it.

If you've got time read back through my early posts on here - they cover everything to do with this problem.

If it hadn't been for the support of the guys on here a perfectly good car with less than 4 years on it would have been sold for buttons at auction so thanks once again everyone.
 
Robert is quite correct and the right tool for the job is generally an essential approach. Other methods require extreme care/caution.

The Croma diesel filter ring nut is designed to be manually tightened and un-tightened. Sadly some (either from factory or after garage services) go beyond hand tightness removal.

<SNIP>


I have to disagree slightly, Fiat quote a torque for the fuel filter ring

Component
Fastening
dia
Value (daNm)
Validity
Ring nut fixing fuel filter cover
-
-
3.0
1.9 JTD 8v
1.9 JTD 16v

You can't set 3.0 daNm by hand.






Robert G8RPI.
 
Hi Brian.

Excuse my ignorance but when you say blank the EGR, can you explain what this means and how to do carry this out. Having just stripped and cleaned the EGR I cannot visualise what this means.

When the weather allows it I will look to changing the fuel filter but if the filter is clogged surely the starting would be effected. It starts normally, by this I mean it starts as it has always done, no different and as I said at the beginning it runs ok under town driving, hardy notice there is a problem.

Might try to see if I can connect with MES tomorrow weather and time permitting.


Blocking the EGR may be OK for diagnostics but permanent blanking or mapping out is illegal. The latest MOT changes check for obvious modification of emissions controls but it's unclear how far a given examiner will go.
As Brin say this will also cause the fault light to come on. A 8V EGR valve sticking open can be buildup in the solenoid rather than the valve so ot's worth checking this. I did a guide on fitting a "swirl plate" on the 16V engine:
https://www.fiatforum.com/miscellan...v-mjtd-egr-valve-restrictor-installation.html
The 8V is similar but the plate is the same lozenge shape as the inlet gasket.
It may be worth looking at the EGR parameters in MES and actuating it "manually" through MES. The notes for EGR actuator solenoid valve say

"This function activates the EGR valve and control solenoid. Please observe:
- Clicking sound from the related relay
\- Clicking sound from EGR valve
- The correct operation of the selected device
- Changes in engine RPM and sound (if the test is executed with engine running)"
This is a lot easier than blanking.


Robet G8RPI.
 
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