Happy New Year folks, or at least it would be if my daughter's low mileage petrol 500 Lounge was not on its way on a flat bed back to me. Two months out of warranty and 6000 on the clock. Her poor little blue 'Bella'. She only passed her test a few weeks ago (the day after they started doing the new tests, first time).

It started as stuttering a lot on pull away, then cutting out and died a few miles later. There was no oil smoke from the exhaust.

It was the longest journey she had ever been on (50 miles to Milton Keynes), so I had checked the oil, lights, tyres, washer water and coolant before she set off. The engine oil was (at cold) just below the top mark and the coolant just under the full mark. It has been running for just over week since the last petrol fill up and was just over half full.

My next door neighbour (he works for Ford installing new engines under warranty all around the country) lent me his diagnostics reader, and we drove down to meet up with her. Plugged the reader in, but no error codes.

We left it for a couple of hours in the car park in front of Nandos and McDonalds to cool down.

Next checked the engine oil. Massively above the full mark and smells strongly of petrol. Coolant at the same mark as before. So, we suspected that the fuel system is leaking fuel into the sump. If it is left a while it will start and immediately cut out.

Is there a fuel pump/injection system likely to cause this (my neighbour seems to think it most likely, but he has no experience of this car, having worked for Ford for the last 20+ years)?

If it is most likely that, can it be repaired or does it need to be replaced? I have another friend who is a good mechanic (works in a local garage, but it is closed for the holidays, plus he is away for this coming week in sunny Spain), so I am trying to figure what needs to be done and what parts I might need (scrap yard crawling for a nearly new unit). Is anyone able to point me in the right direction?

Trevor

CotswoldPhoto said:

Happy New Year folks, or at least it would be if my daughter's low mileage petrol 500 Lounge was not on its way on a flat bed back to me. Two months out of warranty and 6000 on the clock. Her poor little blue 'Bella'. She only passed her test a few weeks ago (the day after they started doing the new tests, first time).

It started as stuttering a lot on pull away, then cutting out and died a few miles later. There was no oil smoke from the exhaust.

It was the longest journey she had ever been on

My next door neighbour (he works for Ford installing new engines under warranty all around the country) lent me his diagnostics reader, and we drove down to meet up with her. Plugged the reader in, but no error codes.


Is there a fuel pump/injection system likely to cause this (my neighbour seems to think it most likely, but he has no experience of this car, having worked for Ford for the last 20+ years)?

If it is most likely that, can it be repaired or does it need to be replaced? I have another friend who is a good mechanic (works in a local garage, but it is closed for the holidays, plus he is away for this coming week in sunny Spain), so I am trying to figure what needs to be done and what parts I might need (scrap yard crawling for a nearly new unit). Is anyone able to point me in the right direction?

Trevor

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Hi Trevor..and daughter..

Id assumed this was a classic 500
.with a flooding carb...

Its FAR from common...
Webe had our panda for 13 years...not teaaly heard of this...

FYI - the same engine is in the FORD Ka

Obvious would be a leaky injector.. but its running well...AND the rail pressure telies on a constant feed from the pump in the tank...

This should be regulated..and reliant on the ignition switch...

Charlie

Pump should run for @5 seconds..once rail pressure is reached..it should stop.

Could be an easy fix...
OBD port may give live data on rail pressures...save a lot of guesswork.

Charlie

Same engine as the KA? Great. Nipped next door. The Ford man is there. Had a chat. Instantly said it will be the number 4 injector in the rail has stuck open. He even has a spare (new) injector in his parts bin in his garage (he can't use it as it belongs to Ford). He says he sees it a LOT of times with this engine, so he always carries one). Most often it is blocked open by some contaminant.

He said the diagnosis is easy but potentially dangerous (make sure the engine is cold and you have a fire extinguisher!!). Undo the stuff in the front of the engine where the injector rail is, pop it off. Put a large piece of cardboard over the engine and rest the rail on it (still connected up), switch on the ignition (don't start the engine) and the faulty injector will squirt fuel on to the cardboard. He said it does this for a second or less, so not a major problem.

He even offered to do it for me, all I need is an injector (to replace his stock one), oil filter and some oil. Nice guy. Crate of beer time (or maybe he likes wine ...).

Really surprised that (very pleasantly) that I got any replies today (New Years Eve), so a BIG thanks to you guys.

A BIG worry off my mind.

Welcome to the forum :wave: and, er, Happy New Year!

So sorry to hear of the problem you're having with your daughter's car; condolences.

The 500 does have a number of common faults, but this certainly isn't one of them. I don't think I've ever seen a post about this happening before on a petrol Fiat.

If raw petrol is getting into the sump, then the only way it can get there is through the injectors, so it's logical to assume this is going to be down to the complete failure of one of the injectors.

Edit: I'd not seen your last post before putting this up!

CotswoldPhoto said:

all I need is an injector

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This is one of those jobs that will cost you stupid money if you just throw the car at a franchised dealer.

You can get an original one here for a good price (but double check the part number); if you make a small donation to the forum, you'll get a code which gives you a further 10% discount. This isn't the kind of part I'd be tempted into buying cheaply from an unknown source on eBay.

For added peace of mind, I'd suggest changing the oil and filter again after another 500 miles or so, to flush any residual contamination out of the system.

Interesting that the Ford tech considers this to be a common problem; as I've said, it's not one that's been reported here. But S4P keep 'em in stock, so there's clearly a demand for the parts.

No problem.
Hope you can get access to a replacement quickly.

So, I showed the £20 ebay ones to Adrian (the neighbour) and he grunted 'fake'. He logged on to his tech account to see how much the KA one was (same part), and said he can get it for about £80-£90, plus delivery and a long wait, so shop4parts it is.

You guys are amazingly helpful. I can't thank you enough. There are sharks in them waters, thanks for helping me avoid them!!

No problem..
Where in the oxon.glos region are you?

sounds like this problem is going to end well.

Any suspicion as to the cause of the contamination? stale fuel in low mileage car?

sawman said:

sounds like this problem is going to end well.

Any suspicion as to the cause of the contamination? stale fuel in low mileage car?

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The tank filter should strain most things out.. in fact ..perhaps thats where the FORD differs.

AS We have not heard of this in panda and 500

The car isn't back with me yet. I can't even talk to the RAC to sort it out until tomorrow. Adrian says that this happens most in Winter after roads have been gritted, but how on earth road grit would get in there. He was outside yet again tinkering and tuning his son's Fiesta ST this morning, So I asked if the fuel tank was different, and he said not. He said the fuel pump sender in the KA is the same as the 500. He told me that Ford think the contaminents are getting in when fuelling the car, as the tank filter is not so good (his words).

He said what they (Ford) think is that road grit is flicked up onto the nozzle of the fuel hose as a car pulls away, and the next one to fill up gets that washed into their tank. That would suggest that the filter in the 500/KA's fuel tank is not as good as it needs to be.

Hey ho. I will post an update when done.

In Australia, so different engine choices available
Have a 500S with a 1.4 petrol engine, so does this engine have it's origins somewhere else and not a FIAT creation. You said 1.2 is same as Ford KA. If Fiat is part of Chrysler group,
how is it that a Ford engine was used.

Hello and welcome to the forum.

werewasi said:

You said 1.2 is same as Ford KA. If Fiat is part of Chrysler group, how is it that a Ford engine was used.

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It wasn't.

The Mk2 Ka uses the Fiat 1.2 FIRE engine.

CotswoldPhoto said:

Same engine as the KA? Great. Nipped next door. The Ford man is there. Had a chat. Instantly said it will be the number 4 injector in the rail has stuck open. He even has a spare (new) injector in his parts bin in his garage (he can't use it as it belongs to Ford). He says he sees it a LOT of times with this engine, so he always carries one). Most often it is blocked open by some contaminant.

He said the diagnosis is easy but potentially dangerous (make sure the engine is cold and you have a fire extinguisher!!). Undo the stuff in the front of the engine where the injector rail is, pop it off. Put a large piece of cardboard over the engine and rest the rail on it (still connected up), switch on the ignition (don't start the engine) and the faulty injector will squirt fuel on to the cardboard. He said it does this for a second or less, so not a major problem.

He even offered to do it for me, all I need is an injector (to replace his stock one), oil filter and some oil. Nice guy. Crate of beer time (or maybe he likes wine ...).

Really surprised that (very pleasantly) that I got any replies today (New Years Eve), so a BIG thanks to you guys.

A BIG worry off my mind.

Click to expand...

It is odd that he's seen this problem a lot. This engine has been around a long time (we had 3 cars with the 1.2 Fire ourselves) and I've never come across this. Maybe it's a 500/Ka thing and the tank in the Panda and Punto are different? Hope you get it sorted.

Tks for that. KAs are extremely rare here - a Ford flop, i think, so that is very interesting news - namely that this is a Fiat engine.

Since you are a Fiat guru, can you tell me something about the 1.4 engine. Origins ETC)

Also, the S has a 'SPORT" mode where the engine is more lively - not an automatic (DUAL Logic) so it's not altering the gear shifting points so what exactly is going on and what effect on fuel consumption.

I'm in a rural area of NSW so Fiats are unseen - probably numerous in big east coast cities, so this forum is the only way to get info.

werewasi said:

Tks for that. KAs are extremely rare here - a Ford flop, i think, so that is very interesting news - namely that this is a Fiat engine.

Since you are a Fiat guru, can you tell me something about the 1.4 engine. Origins ETC)

Also, the S has a 'SPORT" mode where the engine is more lively - not an automatic (DUAL Logic) so it's not altering the gear shifting points so what exactly is going on and what effect on fuel consumption.

I'm in a rural area of NSW so Fiats are unseen - probably numerous in big east coast cities, so this forum is the only way to get info.

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I know I'm not the bloke you asked for, but I believe I can answer your questions.

The 1.4 engine, from my understanding is a slightly larger version of the 1.2 with a twin-cam head.

The 'Sport' mode alters the drive-by-wire throttle response and steering weight. Although it feels much sprightlier, it isn't actually making more power.

CotswoldPhoto said:

The car isn't back with me yet. I can't even talk to the RAC to sort it out until tomorrow. Adrian says that this happens most in Winter after roads have been gritted, but how on earth road grit would get in there. He was outside yet again tinkering and tuning his son's Fiesta ST this morning, So I asked if the fuel tank was different, and he said not. He said the fuel pump sender in the KA is the same as the 500. He told me that Ford think the contaminents are getting in when fuelling the car, as the tank filter is not so good (his words).

He said what they (Ford) think is that road grit is flicked up onto the nozzle of the fuel hose as a car pulls away, and the next one to fill up gets that washed into their tank. That would suggest that the filter in the 500/KA's fuel tank is not as good as it needs to be.

Hey ho. I will post an update when done.

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Hi again. Any news..??

Weve had a Ka engine expire too since this last conversation.

As an aside there was a mid size 80's FIAT that had a really poor reputation for crud in the fuel system.

You would've thought things had moved on..

Charlie . Oxford