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Technical Fiat 500c 0.9 Twin-air turbocharger problem

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Technical Fiat 500c 0.9 Twin-air turbocharger problem

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500RJ

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Hello,
Thanks for reading this....I have a 2011 Fiat 500c 0.9 Twin-air with a broken turbo, Its done 90,000 miles. The spindle bearings have collapsed and the impeller spindle is moving side to side like it shouldn't do - lots of play.

I have taken the unit off and stripped it down to find bent impeller fins and all sorts, due to the spindle nut coming off. I bought a second hand unit from eBay for £75 and basically made one good turbo out of two. I was so proud of myself! However it only lasted 5 miles and then I was back to square one - turbo back off and the spindle is rotating like a bent drill bit in a high speed drill. It appears that I did not centralise the cartridge properly when fitting the large circle back in place, therefore it was always going to be off centre at high speed.

I am looking at getting another turbo so thats fine....but I cannot find any details on the location or type of oil pump that this engine has? I would like to check or change both oil pump and turbo oil feed pipe but cannot find where they are?

Any help please would be most appreciated :D

R
 
Can't help with its location other than deep inside the engine, if it will run less the turbo, it shouldn't be hard to tell if there's a decent oil feed as it should pour out, as for a replacement turbo see if you can get a secondhand unit from a new(ish) car or a properly reconditioned one.
 
Welcome, 500RJ :wave: Very interesting to read of your efforts - bad luck that it didn't work out for you, as it sounded like a clever rebuild indeed.

I've seen one of these small turbos (from a 1.3 MultiJet - diesel) where the turbine shaft had sheared completely in two - I'll never know why. You can imagine how all electronic diagnostic attempts failed to produce a conclusive result...

As for finding the oil pump, the sump would need to come off anyway for removing/checking the oil pickup. Think I'd do what John202020 said and just verify the oil feed at the turbo itself by unbolting the pipe (banjo) fitting and cranking the engine on the starter. After a few seconds, there should be strong oil flow.

-Alex
 
Okay, thank you both (y)

I thought that I wouldn't be able to do that as the turbo is removed, but as you both imply I could just crank it over without starting.....the pump will still work and in turn should flow oil through the pipe.

I'll give it a go, then check the pick-up second.

Thanks chaps
 
Okay....tonight I have found zee problem!

Having removed the sump for a "look inside" I found everything okay. I then thought about chasing the oil supply route through the engine to the turbo where it terminates at the turbo bearing with a 5mm flexible feed pipe and banjo.

I couldn't blow down it and subsequently found it blocked sold with oil carbon deposits. Lots o tapping later and a clean out with an old brake cable sorted this.

Cheers

:slayer:
 
500RJ said:
Okay....tonight I have found zee problem!
Having removed the sump for a "look inside" I found everything okay. I then thought about chasing the oil supply route through the engine to the turbo where it terminates at the turbo bearing with a 5mm flexible feed pipe and banjo.
I couldn't blow down it and subsequently found it blocked sold with oil carbon deposits. Lots o tapping later and a clean out with an old brake cable sorted this.
Click to expand...

Hi,
well done for,
1, being the highest mile of TA to post more than once on here, and
2, for locating the issue

I bough an older FIAT once that failed in a similar fashion..I suspect it'd NEVER had an oil change in it's 60,000 miles.:bang:

try ( TA's are "different" - I know) and get access to the top-end valvegear.., mine was SOLID as if packed with soil / earth:eek::yuck: small wonder the fresh oil went black in 200 miles ( like a diesel)

the oil-changes on a TA are a bit of an expensive faff..
so not unrealistic for somebody to think it'll be fine .. it's still got oil in it..:(

Charlie - Oxford - Punto TA
 
John202020 said:
That begs the question why was it so gunk ed up? I would run flushing oil and cleaning agent through the engine with a new filter then replace the filter and use the correct oil to fill back up and change it every six months.
Click to expand...

Flushing oils are highly controversial; some swear by them, others say they do far more harm than good. A little time spent browsing the internet will get you all the opinions you could wish for.

Personally I'm in the latter camp and would never use one - if an engine were sufficiently sludged up to really benefit from it, I'd want to do the job properly and strip the engine instead.

Whatever your beliefs, using one will almost certainly invalidate your engine warranty (if you get found out).

The best thing is not to let sludge build up in the first place, and that means regular oil & filter changes - at least every 9000 miles, and probably more frequently on a turbocharged engine.

IMO 18k oil & filter changes are not sufficent to properly protect the long term health of any engine, and certainly not a highly stressed turbocharged one like the 0.9TA.
 
Last edited:
John202020 said:
That begs the question why was it so gunk ed up? I would run flushing oil and cleaning agent through the engine with a new filter then replace the filter and use the correct oil to fill back up and change it every six months.
Click to expand...

EXTREME CAUTION here:eek:

the Multiair unit is reliant on oil quality..so CHOOSING to run the wrong grade of oil through it is amplifying the risk of it's £500 failure:bang:

a few oil changes at short intervals YES -

thinner flushing oil.. NO - not in MY vehicle.
 
Yep agree, though I'm (as you could guess) use a flushing agent sometimes camp, and have not had an issue, but this maybe because I'm old school and change the oil 12 months at the latest, using this system dads petrol Honda has got 182,000 miles on it along with the auto box. I accept it may be different for a turbo charged engine too.
 
Last edited:
John202020 said:
Yep agree, though I'm (as you could guess) use a flushing agent sometimes camp, and have not had an issue, but this maybe because I'm old school and change the oil 12 months at the latest, using this system dads petrol Honda has got 182,000 miles on it along with the auto box. I accept it may be different for a turbo charged engine too.
Click to expand...

the turbo isn't the issue..so much as the solenoid that replace the inlet valves in a TA / Multiair system
 
Reading through this, I concur with others opinions re oil changes. The first oil/filter change on our old TA was done at just under 5k I think and the second one done around 11 or 12k. Had we kept the vehicle, it would have had a oil/filter change every 6k miles without fail. Now, I've heard all the arguments I want to hear about modern synthetic oils being so good they don't need changing for 20k and imvho, it's total carp. I change the oil/filter in my Saab 9-3 every 5k miles without fail, the engine oil is hardly ever black in the sense you see lots of diesel engine lubricant. The only reason engine oil gets black like that, is through lack of regular oil/filter changes. Because I do the oil/filter changes myself, it costs me just £25 a pop and 45 minutes of my time, a very small price to pay in my opinion, especially when you consider the price of a replacement turbo charger knackered through infrequent lubricant servicing.

As for engine flushing, I used to do this at every oil/filter change on my previous petrol engined vehicles, but not any more and I wouldn't reconsider doing it either.
 
frupi said:
Reading through this, I concur with others opinions re oil changes. The first oil/filter change on our old TA was done at just under 5k I think and the second one done around 11 or 12k. Had we kept the vehicle, it would have had a oil/filter change every 6k miles without fail. Now, I've heard all the arguments I want to hear about modern synthetic oils being so good they don't need changing for 20k and imvho, it's total carp. I change the oil/filter in my Saab 9-3 every 5k miles without fail, the engine oil is hardly ever black in the sense you see lots of diesel engine lubricant. The only reason engine oil gets black like that, is through lack of regular oil/filter changes. Because I do the oil/filter changes myself, it costs me just £25 a pop and 45 minutes of my time, a very small price to pay in my opinion, especially when you consider the price of a replacement turbo charger knackered through infrequent lubricant servicing.

As for engine flushing, I used to do this at every oil/filter change on my previous petrol engined vehicles, but not any more and I wouldn't reconsider doing it either.
Click to expand...


(y)
TBH - I'd not expect ANY petrol engine oil to go black if changed at regular intervals,
diesel is different, it's carrying SOOT from Derv combustion.;)
 
I've been using Shell Nitro diesel in my Saab now for almost two years. No issues with regens, smoke analyser readings at MOT time, virtually non existent.

The petrol TA engine probably needs far more care than a more standard petrol engine, it's just a pita with the oil filter situation where you have to use diagnostics to reset the oil change interval etc and of course, highly recommended to use only genuine Fiat oil filters.
 
500RJ - What is known of this vehicle's service history?

That said- black carbon deposits in the turbo oil feed (upstream or downstream of the turbo? Have you checked both sides?) sounds like the classic symptoms of an engine switched off with a red hot turbo.

My opinions on the 18k oil change regime for the twinair (and other engines) is well known- now twinairs are making their way towards the higher-mileage used car market I hope this does not become common.
 
Using the correct grade C3 oil is also important - my TA gets new oil annually, which has averaged at every 8000 miles over 5 years.
18000 mile service intervals are also thought to be a contributing factor to the many cam chain failures in VAG engines - they have now gone to a cam belt.
Also, its quite common for people who have had a turbo failure to have the replacement fail after not many miles. The oil feed pipes should be cleaned out or replaced with the turbo, but apparently not all garages do this.
 
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