Are you happy with your dualogic transmission?

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Are you happy with your dualogic transmission?

Are you happy with your dualogic transmission?


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uberjonnoise

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Seems to be a lot of negativity around Dualogic. Please tell me what you think. Happy: yes/no?
 
I am extremely happy with my Dualogic transmission; I think it's the best part of the car.

It surpassed my expectations when I stepped out of a 2003 Alfa 156 Selespeed and into the 500. I felt that the Dualogic was better engineered in the gear selection mechanism (a light 'snick' rather than a loud 'chack' accompanies selection of first or reverse).

The clutch control is exemplary, far better than I would manage with a manual clutch. Gear changes can be undetectable, especially when it 'plays' with the throttle in its non-Sport mode.

It really ought to be named Quadrologic, as there are really four modes on my 500 with 1.4 engine:
- Auto, normal
- Manual, normal
- Auto, Sport
- Manual, Sport
I drive in the last mode most of the time, but occasionally switch to the first mode - Sport causes the automatic changes to be more aggressive than necessary when slowing down.

In manual mode, the system still changes down by itself as I slow down, just when I would want it to, but it is also very clever at prioritising driver inputs, overriding its own logic. So, for example, if it was about to change from 4th to 3rd as you slow for a roundabout, but a split second earlier you double-click the left paddle, it will give you 2nd immediately (and not first).

I don't think of it as an automatic transmission, but instead as a better alternative to a conventional manual. An automatic transmission will always be in the wrong gear at some time, and brings a penalty in performance and fuel efficiency. Dualogic gives you the advantage of a manual transmission (no fluid coupling so a direct feel with 'engine braking', always your own choice of gear ratio) yet also the relevant advantages of an automatic transmission in that gear changes are easy and consistent.

It takes very little time to master the Dualogic, whereas it is always possible to stuff up a manual, even after many years of experience. For example, when a wet shoe slips off the clutch pedal, or 5th is selected instead of 3rd due to a sloppy, rubbery shift action that should or could always be better.

Given the option of Dualogic, I can't really understand why anyone would want a manual transmission any more than they would want a manual choke, or crank handles to wind the windows down.

I suppose there is a price saving to be had by choosing a manual transmission, but the day that the car has to be driven by an auto-only driver, the price saving seems quite irrelevant as they won't be able to drive at all. With a Dualogic, the worst-case scenario is that they will complain about its jerky gear changes. You can bet that if you gave that same person a manual transmission, the gear changes would be a LOT more jerky...

At some point, the Dualogic's clutch will need replacing, just as for a manual transmission, and there is the chance of an electrical fault or a fluid leak, just as there is the chance of a manual gearshift linkage breaking or dropping off (or feeling sloppy or stiff for years beforehand.) If you are going to compare reliability, you would have to measure the whole experience, including things like a heavy clutch pedal that squeaks!

In summary:
Comparing Dualogic against manual: the Dualogic wins in every respect: smoothness, ease of use, reliability (right up until it dies at some point. It's even designed to allow a push start).

Comparing Dualogic against a standard automatic, such as the 6-speed automatic available on the USA 500: I can understand how the standard automatic will make better gear choices and smoother gear changes regardless of driving style and with no skill required; the standard automatic might also last longer. The standard automatic has a weight penalty, a performance and economy penalty, and it alters the feel and sound, even when shifted manually. Many drivers will see all this as unimportant. Standard automatics will always sell well, particularly in Japan and the USA.

It's just a shame that most people will never discover the happy middle ground, as the Dualogic isn't thought good enough to sell in the markets that expect autos, and the markets that expect manuals will continue to rubbish the Dualogic at every opportunity.

-Alex
 
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I am extremely happy with my Dualogic transmission; I think it's the best part of the car.

It surpassed my expectations
When the engineers designed the Dualogic, did they really want something that had a ponderous change, something that was unable to swap cogs without frequently causing the car to lurch. The result suggests they were working to provide a cheap alternative to a conventional auto in a budget car.

The clutch control is exemplary, far better than I would manage with a manual clutch. Gear changes can be undetectable.....
Good clutch control is the Hallmark of a competent driver.
I'd be embarrassed if I couldn't achieve a better change than the Dualogic.

An automatic transmission will always be in the wrong gear at some time....
And Dualogic won't?

With a Dualogic, the worst-case scenario is that they will complain about its jerky gear changes.
So jerky in every model I've tried that I chose not to buy a car fitted with it.

I can understand how the standard automatic will make better gear choices and smoother gear changes regardless of driving style and with no skill required....
Your concession that the Dualogic isn't as effective in its operation.
The only thing the Dualogic offers is convenience, like beans on toast.

It's just a shame that most people will never discover the happy middle ground, as the Dualogic isn't thought good enough to sell in the markets that expect autos, and the markets that expect manuals will continue to rubbish the Dualogic at every opportunity.
People buy automatics for a number of reasons.
I wanted convenience, refinement and performance.
The Dualogic offers the first as a cheap alternative to an automatic.
For the other reasons I bought an Audi with the 7 speed S-tronic.
I'm not embarrassed to admit that the gear change is better than I could achieve; almost always undetectable and apparently instantaneous. It really is brilliant whether simply driving in traffic or when pressing hard through the box in manual or sport modes.
Good luck to those of you who love your Dualogic; there are better alternatives and it's the only reason I didn't buy the 500.
 
I value your opinion, Fubar 500, thank you for taking the time to write.

I do concede that a standard automatic will work more smoothly for many drivers, especially those that expect an automatic. And you're right - the benefit of Dualogic over manual is convenience.

I stand by my claim about the clutch control being smoother than most drivers of manuals will manage, and yes, in manual mode the Dualogic has a better probability of being in the right gear than a standard auto does.

Of course I disagree with the claim that it's a ponderous (slow) gear change, and I think Lamborghini would agree that a single-clutch system is sufficiently fast - they went with that rather than a dual-clutch system. It's also attracting similar criticisms to the Dualogic. I bet there are some people who like it and some that don't.

Meanwhile I think by considering Audi's S-tronic as an "alternative", you are being a little unfair - the only real alternative to a Dualogic 500 is a manual 500, and for me the Dualogic comes out on top. I presume the S-tronic is a development of the earlier DSG, which I have driven and didn't like any more than my experience of a 7-speed CVT (on which I felt the ratios were quite arbitrary and unnecessary).

Anyway, I'm glad you're happy with your purchase. I'm happy with mine :)
 
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i'm not a fan, i've driven my mams panda a lot and it's jerky, rides the clutch a lot more than it has to, dumps the clutch so fast it clunks sometimes, sometimes it wont go into gear at all and fiat don't know what's wrong with it.

i love automatics but wouldn't have a dual logic, proper automatic all the way!

my dad had an audi s-tronic and the gearbox on that was not much better! that eventually packed in at a meer 70k miles!
 
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i'm not a fan, i've driven my mams panda a lot and it's jerky, rides the clutch a lot more than it has to, dumps the clutch so fast it clunks sometimes, sometimes it wont go into gear at all and fiat don't know what's wrong with it.

i love automatics but wouldn't have a dual logic, proper automatic all the way!

my dad had an audi s-tronic and the gearbox on that was not much better! that eventually packed in at a meer 70k miles!

I will admit the Dualogic setup on my MJ Bravo is better than on our Dualogic Panda. But we've no juddering. Tried bleeding the hydraulic system Alex as previously mentioned :confused:
 
More than happy with our 500c dualogic.my missus had an operation on her left knee so finds it painful to drive a manual she loves it,when i drive it i normally drive it in manual mode so i decide when to change i find the changes very smooth in both modes, just wish my company grange punto van was dualogic because most of my driving is stop start in town.:)
 
I will admit the Dualogic setup on my MJ Bravo is better than on our Dualogic Panda. But we've no juddering. Tried bleeding the hydraulic system Alex as previously mentioned :confused:

no juddering on it, it just clunks if you tried to pull away quickly, sometimes if your doing 5mph at a roundabout and tried to pull away again it can jerky too.

for what it is, it's not bad, i get the point of it, convenience of an auto with the fuel economy of a manual.

i wouldn't have one myself, if i wanted an automatic i'd get a proper one.
 
I do prefer a CVT box, but it'll always be smoother than a Dualogic due to their setups.

Agreed... -- although it's strange to me (and perhaps you know the reason why...) that FIAT switched from an auto with 'fake' ratios (Speedgear), to an automated/robotized manual (Dualogic) for their semi-automatic cars... -- especially for ones aimed at more city-based driving.... :confused:
 
Agreed... -- although it's strange to me (and perhaps you know the reason why...) that FIAT switched from an auto with 'fake' ratios (Speedgear), to an automated/robotized manual (Dualogic) for their semi-automatic cars... -- especially for ones aimed at more city-based driving.... :confused:

Cost and emissions I suspect, and possibly reliability (would you credit). CVT boxes are fairly reliable, but when they do go, boy oh boy do they go!
 
My Father has a Grande Punto with Dual Logic Transmission and I think it is a fantastic car to drive in Manual Mode. Don't try and drive it like a normal automatic as you will be disappointed, but drive it as a clutchless( No Pedal ) Manual and it is superb. I drive a 2012 BMW 5 Series with 8 speed Auto. Only 2 things I would change is Paddles on the Steering wheel (Not fitted on this model) and the annoying beep when you ask it to change up and it doesn't want to, would rather it just didn't do it than make a loud beeping.

But the concept is great - as long as you realise what you are driving and drive it accordingly

Jon
 
It almost sounds to me as if a lot of you are almost driving different cars; with your descriptions of the dualogic gearbox. Very different to my experiences.

Amongst my cars of a 2 litre 42 year old manual Citroen DS, a 3 litre 24 valve V6 Citroen XM; I also have a 1.2 litre dualogic Fiat Panda from 2007 with 16,000 miles.

The Fiat's starts and "take offs" are totally smooth. Whether fast or slow. This jerky moment and juddering that people talk about (or whatever reasons are stated); simply does not happen on our 2007 dualogic Fiat Panda 1.2.

Only very occasionally when feathering the throttle at an uphill or slow pull off, may you feel it caressing and lightly pumping the clutch. Just as anyone may need to do in a manual car in certain situations.

So dualogics can be fine and as perfect as one can get.. Which leads me to wonder if these peoples cars that have the problems need servicing or have the gearbox sensors "tuning". For instance is it certain Fiats/engines that these apparent problems are on?

My issue with the gearbox is that in off road conditions in can not sometimes cope. I have to drive along part of a beach regularly. The front wheel drive manual cars are fine (rear wheel drives get stuck on the turn). My heavy automatic Citroen is fine.

But once the Fiat Dualogic got stuck; as embedded into the beach. Too much friction by the beach material around the wheels; and the clutch would not feed enough power in to turn them. It just slipped the clutch. Then smoked the clutch.

But generally the gearbox is exceptional. I like the flexibility of it.

We have owned the Fiat Panda 9 months. I believe I have a technical enough background to back up my opinion to a high degree.

The problems that some people describe; assuming they are not exaggerated for effect; really make the description of their perception of the dualogic system sound like a different car.

Our car shows the gearbox can work perfectly. So what cars are these problem gearboxes on?Is there a theme?

Our 2007 Fiat Panda 1.2 Dualogic is fine. You get a "proper" gearstick, and not flappy paddles. Uphill starts are a delight. Use the handbrake the "conventional" way; or left foot braking to save the handbrake adjusment ;-) .

I think once you have had a good one, most people would never want to go back to a manual OR automatic. Nice system to use.

I drove a manual Fiat panda mk 2 once. I found the gear shift on that one a bit stiff and lacking feedback; from what I remember. So prefer the light dualogic.

Certainly on the Fiat Panda , the dualogic is they way forward I think. It is converted me from a manual to a semi-automatic preference on this car.
 
Epic thread resurrection, would be interesting to see how MEP rates it now given the one in his bravo packed up and refused to be fixed despite months of attempts.
 
Epic thread resurrection, would be interesting to see how MEP rates it now given the one in his bravo packed up and refused to be fixed despite months of attempts.

I'm still happy with it as a whole, just not the useless and pathetic dealers with no customer service skill, or people who know what they're doing tbh.

Its the above the lets the system down drastically imo.
 
I am extremely happy with my Dualogic transmission; I think it's the best part of the car.

I felt that the Dualogic was better engineered in the gear selection mechanism (a light 'snick' rather than a loud 'chack' accompanies selection of first or reverse).

The clutch control is exemplary,




-Alex

I agree. On our car (the Fiat Panda 1.2 Dualogic) it is the transmission that I think is the best; all things considered. |I already have a manual car, and also a 'normal' automatic car.

Respectively for each of my cars and their different designs; I feel they have the transmissions that work the best. It happens to be fully manual for one car; fully automatic for another; and for the Panda I feel the semiautomatic transmission is the best transmission to go for.

You know when one is super critical on test driving cars....the first time I drove a Fiat Panda Duaologic...

with all the windows open (listening out) that slight "click sound" one gets when changing gears. drew my attention.

It sounded like a snapping stick.

I once had a car with an imploded wheel bearing. That can sound the same. So I wondered if it was that.

I have also had a car twice in my life where the planet and sun wheels have broken in the differential.

That too can sound exactly like the "snapping stick" sound you can sometimes hear when the dualogic changes gear.

(Eventually a broken sun/planet gear can sound like you have run over a brick with a bang incidentally. I thought that was had happened the first time it happened to me.)

But then I realised it was not any of those problems; so I was happy! It was the Dualogic Panda doing its job.

I can assure those that seem to have come across "clunky" dualogics; that these obviously must be problematic or out of adjustment cars. Because ours works perfectly. So this shows they can and do work perfectly.

Only know issues with the Dualogic gearbox (that I know of):-

(1) Offroad driving; where the friction of beach/earth/ (or whatever) can be too much to allow the car to turn the wheels. It just sits there; engine reving, then clutch smoking. Similarly someone on here had same problems towing.

(2); about 3 times in nine months of ownership......I have had to accelerate hard out of a couple of dangerous limited visiblity junctions.. At the last moment I have had to hit the brake because of a fast moving vehicle coming into view.

The car stalls. Obviously the clutch is fully engaged at that point, and as you hit the brake, quickly and hard just as the car is trying to power and "spool" up it just cant let the clutch go quickly enough. Result stall.

Otherwise the transmission is perfect. No juddering, jumping, bouncing at any speed or pull off.

This shows the Dualogic transmission can be "as perfect" as it was intended. I feel the ratios are perfect on the Panda.

I wonder if the people that have had clutch juddering; have totally worn out clutches? Clutches can judder (not just slip) when they are worn on any car. As can oil on the clutch.

If it is those last two points; that is standard clutch wear that causes that; and not the fault of a dualogic transmission.

Dualogic (*overall) has a big thumbs up from me.
 
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I can't really understand why anyone would want a manual transmission any more than they would want a manual choke, or crank handles to wind the windows down.


-Alex

Depends on the car and the situation.

Manual transmission...less to go wrong; and gives you better options in off road driving situations.

Sometimes a "normal" automatic as well as a a manual (but not a semiautomatic); will allow one to boot the power in to (on purpose) break traction. That is sometimes needed in certain situations. (eg embedded on a mixed shingle/sand beach)

I am fortunate enough to have driven to Asia and through a fair bit of Africa etc. Sometimes with a dead engine in a river, or with a working engine in mud; having the ability to put it in first gear; and turn the starter motor over to pull you out is the way to do it.

I can also say that having had total battery failure on a full automatic car; it means you get stuck and can not change gear (all down to the battery); and similarly a failed battery on the Dualogic Panda sent the transmission and EBD ABS etc into spasms. For that manual cars on manual chokes etc definitely best (y)

Manual chokes too can be an advantage. Not reliant upon sensors. More flexible for altitudes etc. One can set an artificially high tick over.

I once was alone and stuck on a really slippery surface. Only way to get the car out was to put it in first gear; set at highest rpm on a manual choke. Leave the wheels spinning as I pushed it along alone.

As for manual windows.....if you sleep in a car they are ideal. And less to go wrong too. You try sleeping on the back seat and then leaning forward to turn the ignition on to open the window an inch.

Many people will have had a failed window regulator from electric windows.

It is a common theme you see at music festivals too. Flat batteries. Caused not just by sound systems; but people leaving the ignition on trying to put the windows up/down at night.

You did not mention cranking handles lol. Several of my cars have had them too (as well as electric start). Very useful for working on the engine and turning it over.

I like cranking handles too ;-)

When I was a student I made some money sometimes by charging up flat batteries from automatic cars stuck coming off ferries. Put the battery on my car; started my car on the cranking handle. Charged their battery; and gave it back.

Happy Christmas.
 
In answer to the OP ( "are you happy with your duologic transmission?" ) I have to say yes, on the whole it works pretty well. Is it as good as some of the more sophisticated non-manual transmissions on the market? No, probably not. The automatic gearbox in my Honda ( Accord 2.4 Tourer ) is far smoother and much more intelligent - but it cost a good deal more. The Duologic in our Panda is very similar in operation to the semi-automatic transmission in the Smart Roadster that we had previously. It's not 100% perfect, but it works in a perfectly acceptable manner...
 
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