I've been doing some research (after test driving a 500 abarth today )

I need to sort my gearbox issues out, and am considering 5 speed agian, due to the restricted lock on turning etc.

The panda 100hp, punto 6 speed etc. are all derivatives of the old cinq gearbox, the C514.

The new 500 abarth runs the C510 gearbox, and as it fits to pretty much the same block, the casing must be similar?!

C514 (cinq, punto 5/6 speed etc.)
Center Distance: 170, 182 mm
Configuration: W-E, 2 axys
Max Input Torque: 150 Nm
Lenght: 362 mm (5-sp), 410 mm (6-sp)
Mass: 33 Kg (5-sp), 35 Kg (6-sp)


C510 (500 abarth, and similar)
Center Distance: 181 mm
Configuration: W-E, 2 axys
Max Input Torque: 206 Nm
Lenght: 380 - 395 mm
Mass: 36 Kg

The 510 can handle a lot more power, and seeing as though my current box has seen less than 7000 miles before death, this can only be a good thing

It's also shorter (physical length) than the 510 6 speed (another bonus in my application).

I'm hoping the diff cup thread is is similar, and the dimensions. What I want to know, if anyone has any pictures of the C510, know what other applications it was used in, as it's been around for a while.

ANYTHING at all information wise will be great

Cheers,

KRistian

HP. said:

It's dangerous to assume that certain parts are fitted and therefore certain modifications or patterns of use are inappropriate.

I've found from Italiaspeed, speaking about the Grande Punto:

"The 5-speed gearbox for the 75 bhp 1.3 Multijet engine

The C510 is extremely easy to manoeuvre and very quiet. It has a transverse configuration with two shafts in a cascade and one differential. In this case too, the gearbox has been optimised, adopting a dual cone synchroniser on first and second, and a highly efficient reverse engagement control. Two improvements that guarantee the product's excellence where manoeuvring is concerned. Lubrication is dynamic and the oil is channelled through bore holes in the housing and on the shafts. The maximum torque transmissible is 21 kgm."

The C514 is fitted to the 1.2 8v and 1.4 8v engines:

"The 5-speed gearbox for the 1.2 8v and 1.4 8v engines

Enhanced acoustic comfort, reduced engagement effort even when cold, and more precise gear engagement. These are the advantages of the C514 gearbox (a transverse configuration with two shafts in a cascade and one differential), which was optimised by changes to: the gears, synchronisers, lubrication, internal gear control and clutch control. Combined with the 5-speed Fire 1.2 8v and 1.4 8v engines, this version represents the maximum upgrade of the gearbox in terms of transmissible torque (15 kgm)."

So, dangerously assuming things I'm going to say chances are the same gearbox is fitted to the Grande Punto 1.3 MJTD as the Panda MJTD - giving the 'box a max torque rating of 206 Nm.

Click to expand...

So the 510 is used in the 1.3 MJT AND the 500 Abarth?

It is normally torque that kills gear boxes, a direct drive top gear, with the primary and 3rd shaft locked together is not to bad, but oodles of torque in 1st or 2nd gear is a severe test for the thrust washers, and end case stiffeners.

The boxes for the turbo engines may have been designed for more torque.

Noel

The gearing has to be different if it is for a diesel, my old MJ90 GP had the six speed box and 70mph was something like 2.5K revs in 6th

Not looked into it but reason the Abarths use the 5 speed box is sure I read its an Alfa gearbox that can handle the power.

The 6 speed box (and 5 speed its based on) would never is pretty much near limits in the Panda/500 100Hp cars, is it used in anything else????

The 500 Abarth in standard trim is 135bhp and 152lb ft which is 206NM which according to your findings is on the limit of torque for the C510 box, yet the SS version offers up 150ish bhp and torque must be close to the GP Abarth which as standard runs 155bhp and 180lb ft IIRC so 244NM. makes me think the box is different.

GP Abarth then in SS trim goes upto 178bhp and 200lb ft (217NM)

Think a wee bit more digging may be needed.

The 500 and Punto esseesse kits are dealer bolt on's for the standard abarth models. You get a crate of the parts fitted by an abarth trained tech, and you get your old bits back.

The esseesse versions don't have any gearbox uprating, so whatever is fitted in the standard Abarth versions, is what the more powerful esseesse run

The 500 abarth is a c510, thats documented on many sites.

I can't find a code for the punto abarth though

The C510 box therefore muust be good for Power: 160 bhp and 230Nm in sport mode.

The punto Abarth esseesse box handles 180bhp and 270Nm and is 6 speed.

I'd imagine the punto Abarth is a bigger box, due to the space available in the bay, and as it is a 6 speed, is something entirely different.

The bravo t-jet also run 6 speed boxes of high power, so i guess the punto abarth esseesse uses the same box.



The 500 abarth version is the box im interested in, due to what it can handle, but from research its looks to be the the same series as the MJT 1.3 box. I'm sure there are different gearings available, so I need to find one thats compatible.


http://www.fptpowertrain.com/eng/applicazioni_automotive_cambi_eu_sa.htm


///EDIT - Looks liek the Alfa 1.4 TS (whatever that is?) does use the C510 box as well



Cheers,

Kristian

Yeah I know about how the SS stuff comes, Emma's Dad has a 500 Abarth on order, has had since July or so last year, should be getting it soon.

Its some cleaver marketing by Fiat telling the public that its like original Abarth getting your stuff in crates etc but its just a back door way of getting the stuff fitted to the car so it does not have to pass type approval for full on model, type approval for effectively aftermarket parts is different and less involved.

Plus as its an added part, the car retains original emissions data so no higher bands would be added making car less desirable. Plus no official MPG figures are produced for the uprated cars, so maybe when driving spirited it maybe somewhat lower on SS's cars than on non SS cars.

I think its great and shows some ingenuity by Fiat doing it this way, but that gearbox does look to be bang on limits which is interesting, and maybe why there is no bigger upgrade available for the 500 as the bigger and no doubt beefier GP Abarth gearbox wouldn't have fitted, the 6 speed 500's already have a limited turning circle, so with an even bigger box with wider wheels!

Just sell the car and buy a proper one :devil: :idea:

J333EVO said:

Just sell the car and buy a proper one :devil: :idea:

Click to expand...

Talk liek that should carry a ban

Well, I am tempted by an abarth esseesse 500, but looking at the outlay, its going to be a lot of ££. It was a blast to drive though!

Then I toyed up buying a new 100hp for £6999 and spending 3-4K modding it to get a bit of performance.

THEN i thought i'd just fix mine with a stronger box.

and THEN I had other silly thoughts

Now I'm just looking at getting mine running tip top. Got the MOT tomorrow :bang:

Gearbox is the most importnat issue at the moment.

Kristian

Even more confusing, the punto box looks intercahngable with the 1.4 alfa ox, but the 1.4 alfa box is interchangable with the higher capacity alfa's.

http://forum.alfa145.com/index.php?showtopic=14024

Think I need to go down the scrapper with my tools and a tape measure lol

do you think the ratings on the boxes are actually what they fail at or just a calculated figure? has anyone stripped them to see what (if anything) has been changed to make them stronger?
anyone with a cento running high 100hp that have blown a box, not from pissing about (doing burnouts) but general hard driving ever stripped one to see what has failed.

I'd assume that the ratings are for when the box will give up after a reasonable service life else my 6 speed, from a 1.2 16v Mk2 Punto Sporting, should have given up a long time ago considering I think I'm running a C514 'box with over 230Nm of torque!

How often do you check your drain plug magnet?

Noel

Since i fitted the box about 8K ago.

Think i will find lots of metal on it?

Pep0 said:

How often do you check your drain plug magnet?

Noel

Click to expand...

About 14k miles ago & yes I'm not expecting it to be pretty when I drain the oil, I'm thinking it's due a refresh around the 20~25k mark again. I know that the box will give up some time & it will expire prematurely, I'm not expecting 200k from the 'box. It has racked up the best part of 40k fast road/track miles without missing a beat, a much bigger problem is the clutch, the damn things are getting eaten up in no time .

Im not totally sure but i thinks its the diff that pops out(mind the pun) before the rest

Arn't the torque monsters on straight cut diffs?

Noel

would you want a straight cut box on a road car? you would need to wear ear protection. also not very smooth.

Hi Craig

All true, and my mates who car rally have strainght cut gear boxes, no sound insulation and ear defenders in their crash helmets.

But it was a question I thought some people has non standard finals?

Noel

craigb244, firstly, don't make the mistake of thinking Stone's turbo is a road car, it's a track car that happens to be road legal. Also the noise problem isn't the final drive more the fact it sounds like someone's emptying a machine gun into the floor pan all the time

I think the torque figures quoted by PowerTrain are somewhat general as I have owned two Doblo's which are fitted with the C510. In my first Doblo the torque figure was 200Nm and in my cuurent one it is 210Mm. So the 206Nm max input torque seems far too close for comfort. I quiried this with Fiat and was told unreassuringly that the C510 is produced in several different formats.

The first Doblo I had remapped which increased power from 100bhp to 135bhp and 200Nm to 255Nm at 36000 miles and is currently at 71000 miles with no problems after 3 years. It did have a new clutch prior to the remap.