Hi Folks, i've been reading all the posts about folks wanting the 4x4, and the Eleganza in Multijet format.

I read some time back that the plant which produces these engines was running at 100%, and could not keep up with the demand as they are now making units for Vauxhall, and Suzuki as well as for Fiat.

At present I think that the 1.3 multijet in its various outputs is put into the Panda Sporting and Dynamic, and the Grande Punto. In the Vauxhall range its the Corsa and Astra. Now Suzuki are going to use this engine in the WagonR, Swift, Ignis and the Jimny.
If Fiat are looking for hard cash from other manufacrureres then I cant see them putting engines into there own cars to maybe sit around for months until sold.

Tara Ian

Highlander said:

If Fiat are looking for hard cash from other manufacrureres then I cant see them putting engines into there own cars to maybe sit around for months until sold.

Tara Ian

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Well I suppose it is possible that Fiat's marketing people know what they're doing. The cars (all except 100hp) are currently being discounted at levels which smack of distress selling, and suggest that there are fields of unsold RHD Pandas (mainly without air con I suspect). But I can't be the only one frustrated by the present engine/options structure: the multijet Panda is one of the very few sub-120 CO2 cars out there, and is also vastly more practical and enjoyable than it's nearest rivals. This means it has a great potential appeal to those who fret about such things.... but who might also be turned off by the Company's recent UK marketing strategy which seems to see the car only as a very cheap (therefore mainly petrol and basic) first car, or a well equipped feminised shopping car (eleganza), or a boy racer's first new car outing (100hp). Thats the same strategy that denies us the multijet 4x4 and multijet Eleganza I suppose..

Sorry to be the party-pooper here, but I comfortably predict that after about 5 years, we will start seeing these MultiJets piling up in the scrapyards.

I've been reading a lot about the long-term reliability of common-rail diesel engines, and I'm afraid it does not look good. You just have to look at the complexity and astronomical working pressures of these engines to understand that any failure out of warranty will probably hurt.

My last car was a Vauxhall common-rail job, I was told that a replacement fuel pump, should it ever be needed, it a four-figure sum.

Factor in FIAT's legendary reliability and excellent dealer network and what do you get?

As someone who spends most of his working day sitting on top of a very large diesel power unit, i'd like to put forward a few points with regards to the reliability of diesel power units.

Most faults that appear on such power units can be placed at the feet of the driver.

blown turbo? usual cause is that folks who drive them hard dont give the intercooler time time to cool the unit down prior to switching off, so the oil just cooks in the turbo.

Fuel pump goes? dont run your car till the low fuel warning comes on as it just draws muck up to the pump. I never let the car get below a quarter tank. plus it you run with am empty tank you get condensation forming on the inside of the tank. this all helps to keep the fuel filter clean and leave you with a good pump.

with regular oil changes, and a bit common sense hopefully you wont have any probs.

The only engine in the range that I would say might have probs in later life due to pressure probs would be the 90 bhp multijet fitted to the grande punto. For a 1248cc unit, i reckon this is pushing the boat out to far.

Tara Ian

bjm38 said:

Sorry to be the party-pooper here, but I comfortably predict that after about 5 years, we will start seeing these MultiJets piling up in the scrapyards.

I've been reading a lot about the long-term reliability of common-rail diesel engines, and I'm afraid it does not look good. You just have to look at the complexity and astronomical working pressures of these engines to understand that any failure out of warranty will probably hurt.

My last car was a Vauxhall common-rail job, I was told that a replacement fuel pump, should it ever be needed, it a four-figure sum.

Factor in FIAT's legendary reliability and excellent dealer network and what do you get?

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B*llocks! I deal with common rail engines every day & have done for years & the most common problems are hoses bursting or pipes splitting!

T14086 said:

B*llocks! I deal with common rail engines every day & have done for years & the most common problems are hoses bursting or pipes splitting!

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Good to hear (In spite of whingeing about the spec, I've just ordered a multijet!). One query: I see from the servicing schedule no reference at all to cambelt... does this mean there's a chain or some other solution?

T14086 said:

B*llocks! I deal with common rail engines every day & have done for years & the most common problems are hoses bursting or pipes splitting!

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I think you're the one talking dangly things, pal.

Those little engines are, like the rest of the car, designed down to a very tight price. What CRD engines have you been working with for years? Certainly nothing of the same ilk as the current rash of engines, that's for sure.

If you're a fleet operator, with cars doing huge mileages for a couple of years, all faults sorted by the manufacturer - fine. They're economically viable.

Anyone else - STAY AWAY. You will get hurt.

There are tales emerging of cars costing 3 or 4 times the price of the Panda getting quietly scrapped while still under warranty as they're just not cost effective to repair.

What chance does a Panda have then?

bjm38 said:

I think you're the one talking dangly things, pal.

There are tales emerging of cars costing 3 or 4 times the price of the Panda getting quietly scrapped while still under warranty as they're just not cost effective to repair.

What chance does a Panda have then?

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OK bjm38, share with us your sources for cars being "quietly scrapped while under warranty". Which cars and what engines? And at what mileages (after all, having to scrap a Panda at anything over 100k miles, while sad, is hardly a financial catastrophe...)

I read somewhere that the design life of the 1.3mjet is supposedly 250,000km.

alfabarry said:

OK bjm38, share with us your sources for cars being "quietly scrapped while under warranty". Which cars and what engines? And at what mileages (after all, having to scrap a Panda at anything over 100k miles, while sad, is hardly a financial catastrophe...)

I read somewhere that the design life of the 1.3mjet is supposedly 250,000km.

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Get yourself over to Honest John's Technical Matters forum if you don't believe me. Plenty of people there with the knowledge and experience who are happy to share.

Also, the company I work for has hundreds of the damn things in Vauxhall Combos - and what a mistake it's turning out to be.

I don't profess to have in-depth knowledge of the system, I'm a water engineer by profession. Those with the eyes to look and the minds to think can decide for themselves about the wisdom of buying what is really a pig in a poke.

T14086 said:

B*llocks! I deal with common rail engines every day & have done for years & the most common problems are hoses bursting or pipes splitting!

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Totally agree. Not that i work with them, but i'm on my second common-rail car (Stilo Multijet) and before that i had a Punto JTD. I got the Punto from new in 2000 and sold it in 2005 after having driven it 210.000 km without any major problems. Infact the only thing changed on the engine (besides the normal service stuff) was a small piece of pipe going to one cylinder and a rev. senser, both costing the astronimical amount off 200-300 danish kroner (about £20-£30) each. And the engine was stilling running like a dream when i sold it.

The same for my multijet, it has run 65.000 km now and has had absolutely no problems with the engine.

Fiat has made common-rail diesel engines since 1997 and are well known for building very reliable engines (both petrol and diesel) unlike some other car manufactures (Opel's diesel engines were not very good, one reason they switched to using Fiat's diesel engines).

All taxi's in Denmark are diesel cars (mainly Meredes, Volvos, Toyotas) and they run more than 300.000 km without any major problems (of course you'll have some that have problems, but that's true with anything).

Hmm.... well my punto has 49k on it, ive had it 12 months in that time ive done 30k in it. In that time and those miles all its needed was a pair of tyres up front. I have changed its oil about 4 times (only cause im a bit fussy like that!). I have let it run into the red on fuel each time before i fill up but nothing has broke yet! its due a filter change (if i can get the bloody thing off!) soon. I plan to keep it well over 100k miles - if it stays as solid as its been ill post back here and prove the guy wrong lol, now watch it break tomorrow

To Quote a previous member:

"If you're a fleet operator, with cars doing huge mileages for a couple of years, all faults sorted by the manufacturer - fine. They're economically viable.

Anyone else - STAY AWAY. You will get hurt. "

End of quote.....


We have a new Panda Multijet - supplied brand spanking new on 10th Nov 2006 - It's now done 9600 miles without fault. Now thats a lot of miles for a little diesel engine I know.........

BUT

Fiat supply 2 years warranty on the Panda Diesel, and a further 1 year from the supplying dealer (provided you get it serviced there - which we do - and have done on three previous fiats) - So thats 3 years warranty

I cant see that the Multijet isnt going to make it to the three year mark - at which point it will get changed for another Fiat - Wonder what new models there will be to choose from by November 2009 ?

Oh, and by the way to all you 'amateur' diesel experts, crapping on about how unreliable CRD engines are - As a retired Hackney Carriage & Private Hire driver - With over a million miles under my belt (thats 80,000 miles a year for 13 years, which is quite normal for a professional driver, before some other 'non professional drivers' / 'mechanics' start trying to voice their uninformed opinions about average mileages for Taxis / Trucks and Delivery vehicles - I know, I was there, in the driving seat - 13 bloody years - blood, sweat, tears, fights, muggings, more fights, runners and ending in Divorce and then retirement from driving for a living).

Anyway, where was I ?

Oh yes.

Before the days of CRD the diesel vehicles we used were fine - the likes of the FX4, Peugeot 405 D, Nissan Primera D were quite good, suffering a few breakdowns associated with diesel pumps - But nothing that we thought excessive due to the high mileages - approx 200k after 2 years or 2.5 years.

Then, along came CRD engines - well - It was fantastic, we didnt have a single Diesel related breakdown on a fleet of 14 Peugeot 406's and Peugeot 806's in two years ! After which half the fleet went Merc 270 and the other half Peugeot EuroTaxi - and that was the same - Not a single diesel related problem. Dnt get me wrong, I'm not saying there were no breakdowns - I am saying there were none associated with the CRD engines.

One last thing - if the Multijet engine was designed as a cheap and nasty diesel - why did they use a Cam Chain rather than a Cam Belt and why use Common Rail rather than individual jets ? Those two very important factors increase the price of production - they also increase service life.

Sorry folks if i've stirred up a bit of a hornets nest.

In my last post on this subject the point I was trying to make is that if the engine is given a little bit of T.L.C. then there is every chance it will give you no problems.

I can see the point, that a large company running a fleet of units are going to see more problems than the private owner, but how many of these faults are due to drivers thrashing the units within an inch of destruction, because they dont own them + they dont care?.

Between our farm and haulage firm I spend most days sitting beside a diesel engine of some description, and have done for the past 40 years. Now i'm no mechanic, but I reckon i've got as good an idea as anyone as to whats going on under the bonnet, and I really dont think that the Multijet engine is as bad as some folks are making out. True anyone can buy a Friday afternoon job, but you would expect to see faults quite early on, or it we were seeing Fiat recalls for engine faults.

I reckon this is one of these subjects that will require time to prove one way or the other.

Tara Ian

bjm38 said:

Get yourself over to Honest John's Technical Matters forum if you don't believe me. Plenty of people there with the knowledge and experience who are happy to share.

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Thanks for this tip. I've done just that and found it makes for interesting reading. I can see that the CR diesels are potentially troublesome, although there's nothing on there to suggest widespread premature failures by Fiat multijets. Are your company's combos with the 1.3 m-jet really packing up with £2000 worth of fuel pump failures in large numbers? The message on HonestJohn seems to be that CRs are temperamental, less tolerant of abuse, and of misfueling in particular, rather than that they are in fact being written off in large numbers where no owner/driver abuse has occurred....

It looks like there's no really hard data to show that the new car buyer who does not cane the car, shows it a modicum of tlc, and somehow desists from pouring petrol/mazola/other inappropriate substance into the tank, is not going to be anything other than very unlucky to experience catastrophic problems.

The fact that the mjet has a timing chain, not a belt, also goes some way to offsetting the fuel pump paranoia by getting rid of the cambelt failure paranoia. I'm used to having to fork out a few hundred notes every 36K on my Alfa to avoid the £2K plus engine rebuild resulting from (frequent and well documented) catastrophic premature cambelt failures on petrol twinsparks.

That said, I think I can now understand you insofar as the secondhand buyer of CR cars might need to exercise great caution, partcularly given the increasing tendency to experiment with cheaper/"greener" ways of filling the tank....... just as twinspark buyers face the problem of cars in which the oil level has been allowed to fall to the catastrophic low required to activate the warning light. Owners are, all too often, neglectful and cheapskate idiots. And company car users are, all too often, hard driving dangerous car abusers. Which is why the only "safe" car to buy used is the idiot proof car. But the logic of that would be that we'd all be driving Toyotas...... and tearing off our right arms with the tedium of it all.....

I think the critism of the crd is a little harsh, afterall, a modern deisel engine is far cleaner,quiter and produces much more BHP than the deisel engines from say 20 years ago. I think the 1.3 fiat engine is a belter, if its that bad howcome vauxhall have stretched it out to 30k between services, with a larger sump capacity ?
I friend of mine has a 3 and a half year old nissan deisel with only 24 k on the clock, which has developed a timing chain problem, and the main dealer quote to fix it ?
£680 !
So I dont think fiat engines are any worse than anyone else, in the motor caravan industry, I beleive the fiat crd engine is the most popular choice, so they cant be all that bad.
The main problem with any modern deisel engine is, due to all the electronics problems they can suffer with, they have the same reliability as a petrol engine.
If I was about to go across the australian outback I'd rather go in an old fashioned deisel plodder, than a modern tuned up engined managed crd.

Highlander said:

Sorry folks if i've stirred up a bit of a hornets nest.

In my last post on this subject the point I was trying to make is that if the engine is given a little bit of T.L.C. then there is every chance it will give you no problems.

I can see the point, that a large company running a fleet of units are going to see more problems than the private owner, but how many of these faults are due to drivers thrashing the units within an inch of destruction, because they dont own them + they dont care?.

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'Tis very true - a lot of fleet failures have been down to blown turbos, all but one of them with drivers under the age of 30 and a certain reputation behind the wheel!

But look at FIAT's marketing here - when did you ever see a diesel sold as a
"sports" model before? These "Sporting" Pandas are the ones more likely to get thrashed, no?

alfabarry said:

Thanks for this tip. I've done just that and found it makes for interesting reading. I can see that the CR diesels are potentially troublesome, although there's nothing on there to suggest widespread premature failures by Fiat multijets. Are your company's combos with the 1.3 m-jet really packing up with £2000 worth of fuel pump failures in large numbers? The message on HonestJohn seems to be that CRs are temperamental, less tolerant of abuse, and of misfueling in particular, rather than that they are in fact being written off in large numbers where no owner/driver abuse has occurred....

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Mostly blown turbos among the wannabe boy-racers, BUT one or two that haven't been explained too well - loud bang at speed, won't restart, new engine. I'm not privvy to tech reports, but one can only guess.

alfabarry said:

It looks like there's no really hard data to show that the new car buyer who does not cane the car, shows it a modicum of tlc, and somehow desists from pouring petrol/mazola/other inappropriate substance into the tank, is not going to be anything other than very unlucky to experience catastrophic problems.

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I'd have to look at my Eleganza's handbook to see if it gives specific advice for MultiJet engines, but would I be right in saying you're told not to put any biofuel in the tank? CRs seem to be very finicky over fuel, supposedly something to do with the lubrication provided by regular diesel.

In years to come, it's likely that our wonderful government might insist on a percentage of all diesel coming from renewable sources. All the carmakers and oil companies are going to have to work together - anyone remember the barney over Formula Shell?

alfabarry said:

The fact that the mjet has a timing chain, not a belt, also goes some way to offsetting the fuel pump paranoia by getting rid of the cambelt failure paranoia. I'm used to having to fork out a few hundred notes every 36K on my Alfa to avoid the £2K plus engine rebuild resulting from (frequent and well documented) catastrophic premature cambelt failures on petrol twinsparks.

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FIAT quote an engine lifetime of 250K kilometres - you might never have to take the head off a car's engine in its lifetime but the scrappies are full of such cars that have died for a multitude of other reasons.

I'm sorry not to have quoted specific incidents from Honest John, but I do recall mention of one poster, "Screwloose", relating a story of nearly scrapping a year old Honda Civic (I think) because of a CR-related malady since the cost of repair outstripped the value of the car. Now imagine a 2-year old MultiJet that's playing up and consider its residual value against something like a Honda Civic. If the people who work on these cars day in, day out, wouldn't have one on their drive, I'm damn sure I'd sit up and listen.

alfabarry said:

That said, I think I can now understand you insofar as the secondhand buyer of CR cars might need to exercise great caution, partcularly given the increasing tendency to experiment with cheaper/"greener" ways of filling the tank.......

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So the only thing to consider now is the potential residual values......

bjm38 said:

Factor in FIAT's legendary reliability and excellent dealer network and what do you get?

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I've only read up to this point so please excuse my ignorance if anyone else has commented on this.

Fiat's legendary reliability. Fiat have always had fantastic engines. Pretty much bomb proof and will take so much stick it is untrue. what let them down was electronic malfunctions and rust. this has nothing to do with the engine.

I would therefore summise that you know nothing about the Fiat engine and how it works. correct me if i'm wrong. I know of multijet diesels going 180,000 miles without a hicup in under 2 years and then been sold on again and still going strong.

bjm38...may I recommend you have a long hard think about what your saying here,for instance a blown turbo (£385) does not mean a new engine & i'm not really sure what you are actually trying to say in this thread.
Just because some posters at 'honest johns' say one thing it doesn't mean its true...after all there are many people & techs here that know this engine better than jusdt about anyone else.Are you saying the posters at Honest johns are always right yet the people who post here are not.
We see doblo 1.3MJ's taxis alot at our garages,these are used 24/7 without a rest,they get hammered yet we have ever never had a engine problem,infact we have changed one MJ turbo on a idea for whistling noise...thats it!
Diesel pumps have always been & always probably will always be expensive,pumps were around £600-800 6/7 years ago so you have to allow for inflation.Diesel pumps can also be repaired economily these days via specialist outlets.
As for cost of repairs outstrippings cars value,well thats a decision for the insurance companies & can apply to all cars with all engines.
I really dont see any point to your postings except scaremongering?

You only just noticed that TI, it took me to the 3rd post. not even read the rest, that was enough to show me that it is all a load of..... preverbial!

never mind, can never tell some people! :bang: