The clutch had become a bit judders when I needed to make a quicker than usual getaway, but no big deal. Then yesterday it was revving at motorway speeds like I had my foot on the clutch pedal. No judder just revving until I let off the power. So although the clutch at less than 40,000 miles old (and I'm not rough on clutches) is going to have to be replaced. Slave and master cylinders were changed when this clutch was fitted.

I've just crawled out from underneath the car -
LHS gearbox output shaft seal housing is wet with oil which is odd because the seals were replaced last year. RHS is dry.
Gearshifter shaft is dry (seals replaced last year).
The clutch inspection cover on top of bell-housing is dry inside and bottom of bell-housing is dry. I need to borrow an inspection camera to look deeper inside.

I'm going to DIY the clutch and will be checking the gearbox bearings and seals. I will be talking to S4P tomorrow, but does anyone have tips for buying the gearbox input bearings and seals?

proper input bearing is 6204.A.G15J30 or BB1 0566 SKF

Its a open bearing plastic cage with a reinforcing ring on one side


not sure why its a specialised read expensive bearing. A standard metal cage have been fitted by others.

Although you better check that for the 1.1 / 1.2 gearbox

measure the gap between the gear and bearing before removing the bearing. There not tight up and vary.

I have taken four gearboxes apart now and two different gaps

dont buy the kit of bearing and seals of ebay

the are a few quid of seals and substandard bearings thrown together and sold at a premium

different brands of clutch feel different.


they all work. I fitted a transmech (just over £40) it very on or off but still working fine.

AP are much more progressive nicer to drive.

I used a standard SKF Explorer 6204 C3 bearing (£3) on my 1.2, with no seals on the bearing, and Corteco brand input shaft seal (also £3).

I was a bit limited by what I could get delivered at a reasonable cost in rural Ireland.

I figured as I'll keep the transmission oil level correctly topped up, a standard 6204 bearing would certainly outlast the clutch, possibly the car.

I suspect it was actually my leaking crankshaft main rear seal that caused my clutch to slip, rather than the input shaft seal.

If the bell housing is dry on your car, it might be worth considering the main rear seal as a possible culprit.

FIAT part numbers for the 1.2 8V, I'd guess the 1.4 16V are different?
Main rear seal 7724665
Input shaft seal 40004670

The clutch was replaced professionally (at about 80,000) but of course the seals either side were not touched. I replaced the hydraulics. The clutch still feels great hence me assuming it's got contaminated.

Thanks for the bearing tips. Especially the shaft spacing measurement. My plan is to get clutch and seals from S4P with a bearing from SKF or similar.

its fairly common for the surface to wear away so the pressure plate isnt clamping with enough pressure causing it to slip


this one is mine and is fine deglazed and tested for flatness ready for the clutch to go back on. This is what it should look like.


But I have seen shed loads of worn out flywheels sold on eBay with well over 2 mm lost from the front surface. So they do fail fairly often. Although I have only known one possible one on here since I joined.


I did use a different type of clutch alignment tool which I quite liked and makes the job slightly nicer.

I measured the gap behind my input shaft bearing at 25thou and tapped the new bearing down to the same gap:

Here's the result of my leaking main rear seal, which contaminated my clutch, causing it to slip under heavy load so revs would rise until I backed off:

rmjbn1 Thanks this is helpful. Today, my clutch feels fine - cold, but I can provoke it to slip in a high gear by dabbing the clutch pedal. Revs rise and take a second or three to fall back to normal. At speed with engine fully warmed up, it would slip quite easily.

Ive had a look at the flywheel with an endoscope camera, via the top access cover, but cannot see any oily mess. I'm thinking it's the gearbox end or the flywheel is toast. The latter is unlikely as the garage, who did the clutch change at 80K miles, are reliable and Im sure would have said if it needed skimming/replacing. The passenger side drive shaft seal housing is a mess of oil but the CV joint is dry (suggests seal is OK). The gear shift seal is dry so it could be oil from the input shaft seeping between bell-housing. Time will tell.

I've ordered a clutch and both seals from S4P. They don't stock the bearing for some reason, but I can get an SKF on eBay.

Edit:
This is ridiculously cheap https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174468392792?hash=item289f206758:g:1GAAAOSw3ZRffdDe

They have "normal" and C3 clearance. Can anyone confirm which is correct?

koalar said:

different brands of clutch feel different.


they all work. I fitted a transmech (just over £40) it very on or off but still working fine.

AP are much more progressive nicer to drive.

Click to expand...

Transmech renown for poor quality by many garages

chris3234 said:

Transmech renown for poor quality by many garages

Click to expand...

I think you will find its a internet forums full of Chinese whispers

transmech are mostly rebadged for euro car car parts. Some have AP printed on the friction material

Pandas have different size clutch's, mine 2010 69hp transmech is the same as the one sold under the blueprint brand yet the blueprint has a Good reputation and the transmech, doesn't, go figure.

I would say I prefer the feel of the AP original clutch over the transnech.

Its been in nearly a year and hasn't had an easy life with short city driving.

DaveMcT said:

They have "normal" and C3 clearance. Can anyone confirm which is correct?

Click to expand...

My understanding is that C3 is suitable for gearboxes as the clearance allows for expansion of the bearing as the transmission warms up:
https://www.bearing-king.co.uk/article/why-are-your-bearings-c3

'Normal' CN (or C0) bearing would have less clearance than C3, better suited for ambient temperature applications.

Range seems to be from C1 (minimal clearance) to C5 (greatest clearance for high temperature applications).
https://www.skf.com/in/products/rol.../deep-groove-ball-bearings/designation-system

As I understand, reduced clearance runs the risk of interference, higher friction, overheating and wear on the bearing. A slightly greater clearance isn't much of an issue.

I'm no expert, though. Thanks to koalar, now I know which is the original spec bearing, I'd be tempted to try and get one at a reasonable price. I think they're £20+ though.

I just went with SKF 6204 as I know others have used before me on Mr. Wild's excellent thread.

I think if I could have got one for a similar price I would have chosen a 2RS with rubber seals on both sides, as all the other bearings in the 'box seem to be.

But there was no trace of seals on the input shaft bearing that came out of my 'box, and I'd guess it was the original...

...then again there was also no trace of the bearing cage, which had presumably disintegrated and melted away completely, so,:shrug:

the bearing is flooded with oil from both sides unlike the other sealed bearings

which will destroy (possibly) a sealed bearing. As the air inside expands and contracts drawing in oil. (I have seen grease turn to wax in other applications but have never tried in the this application)

no idea why its done this way. But as long as there's oil in the gearbox there good for 1/4 million miles in the 1.1 and 1.2 possibly a lot more

looking through the bearing catalogues most manufactures use a GRP cage with a reinforcing ring. No idea why. There not a common bearing. A few pounds extra adds up when you are making tens of millions gearboxes. But the designer thought it was necessary. Again seems strange as metal cages are used elsewhere in the gearbox. Also GRP degrades in hot gearbox oil but shouldn't ever get hot enough

Standard roller bearings also fit. There are companies that rebuild upgraded gearboxes. Its pretty hard to take the rear bearing out without air tools and hydraulic press and only worth the cost if you are upping the torque

I learn a lot about bearing while researching the part number. But nor enough to understand why a stand bearing isn't used

Thanks I've ordered a C3 FAG/SKF bearing. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/174468392792?var=473668249381

The original has lasted 120,000 miles so a similar spec is fine. But considering this failure is not uncommon, Fiat really should make it easier to change out the input bearing when the clutch is changed. But it is what it is.

By the way, mine is silent in neutral with the clutch engaged or disengaged. So I suspect the bearing might be ok with just the seal failed. That said, it might be the crank seal so I have ordered both and will change the bearing anyway.

Greased sealed bearings do make sense, especially high up in a gearbox where they can run dry until car is moving. However as Koalar says when the internal seals leak, the bearing becomes choked and overheats. Finding ways to keep open bearings oiled is a far better design.

this is fairly common. Lost a few mm from the surface of the flywheel stopping the full pressure from being exerted


although I not seen one on a Panda


500, punto yes

Thanks koalar. Ive not got that far.

Gear oil drained.
Drive shafts and hubs removed (loving my new wide fork wedge).
Slave cylinder and supporting brackets removed (the latter need a de-rust and paint).
Gear shifter cables removed (the rear cable retaining clip is a right biatch).
Engine supported on lifting strap.
Gearbox mount and bracket removed.
Dog bone removed (had to disconnect exhaust to get the bolts out).

Every bolt I can find is removed but still cannot shift the box from the engine.
Top two large bolts plus the smaller one further back
Large front and bottom bolts removed.

There must be another connecting bolt, probably somewhere at the back, but I cant find it.

Aaggh!!!

I found this YouTube channel helpful for my 1.2, here's the 100HP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Sa4KfAQG_Q

DaveMcT said:

Thanks koalar. Ive not got that far.

Gear oil drained.
Drive shafts and hubs removed (loving my new wide fork wedge).
Slave cylinder and supporting brackets removed (the latter need a de-rust and paint).
Gear shifter cables removed (the rear cable retaining clip is a right biatch).
Engine supported on lifting strap.
Gearbox mount and bracket removed.
Dog bone removed (had to disconnect exhaust to get the bolts out).

Every bolt I can find is removed but still cannot shift the box from the engine.
Top two large bolts plus the smaller one further back
Large front and bottom bolts removed.

There must be another connecting bolt, probably somewhere at the back, but I cant find it.

Aaggh!!!

Click to expand...

Starter motor I seem to remember (maybe not on this forum)
About one of the bolts going allthrough way through the motor and into the back of the bell housing


Worth checking allthrough it may have been on a different make/manufacturer of car

chris3234 said:

Starter motor I seem to remember (maybe not on this forum)
About one of the bolts going allthrough way through the motor and into the back of the bell housing


Worth checking allthrough it may have been on a different make/manufacturer of car

Click to expand...

Correct

You have to take the bolts out but you can leave it wired up and at the back

There also one nut on a stud