Technical Do Panda sumps actually rust through??

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Technical Do Panda sumps actually rust through??

YorkshireFiat

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So I noticed an oil leak on the gravel and went to investigate this evening...

The sump looks to be in terrible, rusty condition. The whole thing is covered in oily goo, but there is no obvious source of leak from above - there is almost a tide-line below the joint, so the seal is still good. And the drip doesn't form on the sump plug, so it isn't there.

I'm left wondering if it has just rusted through?? Is this a thing with Fiats? I've worked on a few cars over the years, but never come across a sump failing through rusting before!!!!

If yes, is it an easy job to swap?

Any input welcomed!!
 
yes common on pandas and Punto's that have steel sumps

clean and degrease. If its the problem you will see it weeping from the surface (damp patches)

medium type job. Plenty of threads on here already explaining the procedure

!.1 and 1.2 have better access than the diesel.

1.4 dont leak normally


All are fairly easy on a lift. Doing the job on the drive will be time consuming and breaking the silicone seal will require some force.


Its also common for the sump to be covered in oil from elsewhere. gearbox input seal along with many others.
 
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I've now scraped off the layers of rust and found a couple of spots where the oil is indeed weeping through!

So looking to replace the sump... sadly mine is the 1.3 Multijet with the exhaust pipe in the way, and it looks as though the gearbox might also be involved.

Any top tips for how to get the exhaust out of the way? I can't see enough to be obvious where I need to undo it.

Haynes manual on the way... I can tell this is going to be a pain!

Many thanks for your input!
 
on the 1.1 and 1.2 is fairly easy to drop the whole exhaust. I undo the exhaust manifold, front mount and the middle exhaust rubber. There is then enough give to pull it forwards off the studs and drop the front down onto the ground leaving the rear still mounted. Just needs a new gasket on reassembly


I dont have the diesel. You have the turbo and pipes to contend with (n)

I have been assuming it the rear of the catalytic converter thats in the way ?


You dont have to touch the gearbox. There is a support bracket that wraps around it that has to come off. Fiat recommend draining the gearbox oil for some reason ? I guess one of the holes could be drilled through and when the bolts removed it will leak. I would take them out First and see if it leaks. Be ready with a bucket just incase

sorry I can't be of anymore help as I haven't worked on the diesel.



it has been known for the exhaust to be cut through then welded back up to make the job easier, if you have the correct equipment to do that.



http://4cardata.info/elearn/312/2/312000000/312000001/312000005/312002337/
 
Our Panda (2010 1.2 Dynamic Eco) had a new sump fitted shortly before we bought it and my Boy's 2012 1.4 8 valve Punto Easy required one about a year after he bought it. Which means both sumps had to be changed in their 7th year of life. Mind you, we do have a lot of salt on the roads up here in the winter.

I was going to do the Punto myself but, knowing the exhaust would need to be dropped and realizing the exhaust joint under the engine was very rusty, it was winter time, and anyway, I'm old and creaky, I handed it over to Harrisons (our local Fiat indy). They charged me £40 to supply the sump and 2 hours labour for fitting (then at around £45 an hour). They do the job by dropping the entire exhaust manifold down, still connected to the exhaust, which gives them the clearance required. So, unfortunately, we had to do a separate repair on the rusted flange connection, which then soon after failed again on the pipe itself so we ended up doing a complete exhaust in the end! (I gave up repairing rusty exhausts years ago and should have just followed my own advice and fitted a new system from the start!) I could have saved the labour on the sump job, but nothing on the sump itself which I would have bought from S4p: https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=...=3766&term=Fiat_Punto_(2012_to_)_1.4_8v_Sumps having had some very poor fitting aftermarket steel sumps from other suppliers in the past.

So, unless you're determined to do the job yourself, you might get a pleasant surprise, if you have a local wee Fiat chap, to ask him for a quote? I commented to our chap as to what good value I thought his price was and he replied that they do so many of them that he keeps the sumps in stock at all times and, for them, it's like falling off a log labour wise!
 
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Every time I am under any of my vehicles, the sumps get a light wire brush and a coat of paint, however sumps can also corrode from the inside and become porous due to the acids in the oil if oil changes are neglected.
 
The sump front face gets pebble-dashed so you need a tough paint or even better when the paint is properly hard, stick a sheet of aluminium over the front face using acrylic body sealant.

The again, 7 years is well past the likely-to-still-be-around-date for a 169 panda.
 
What a strange statement to make on a forum for 169 panda's, mines 12 years old and going strong, I expect it to be around for at least another 10 years.
I agree johno. Ours was first reg early 2010 and, after replacing quite a lot of "consumable" items, like struts, suspension parts and brake pipes etc - which I would expect at that age, the only thing I now have concerns about is the rear spring pans. I've been having a good dig around them preparatory to applying a rust pacifier and painting and there are distressingly large chunks of rusty metal being easily dislodged! Other than that, unlike our old (Mk 1?) Panda Parade which was a constant battle against the tin worm, Becky's body shell is generally in very good condition. I also frequently see older 169 models when I'm out and about on my daily walks. My perception is that they are as durable as most small cars of their era and more durable than some.
 
What a strange statement to make on a forum for 169 panda's, mines 12 years old and going strong, I expect it to be around for at least another 10 years.

correct

mine

13, 14 and 10 years and 200K, 150K and 70K miles

no rust

no repaint

been bashed still like new except for a the dings and scrapes. Even these haven't rusted much

similar to the rear axle.

some fail, some dont,

build up of mud and salt I suspect.

doesn't help the OP though, who's is already weeping, which will only get worse. Need changing ASAP.
 
What a strange statement to make on a forum for 169 panda's, mines 12 years old and going strong, I expect it to be around for at least another 10 years.

My statement is entirely in context.

Add 7 years to the current age of a 169 panda and you are looking at best part of 25 years old for the earliest models. 99% of these cars are very unlikely to be around that long. Those which are still on the road can fit another sump pan. They are not expensive.

Anyone wanting to do the job properly, can have the new sump pan zinc metal sprayed and epoxy primed.
 
So, I figured I should post back briefly with my experience. I'm the OP.

I'm fortunate that this Panda is a 'spare' car which we don't have to used daily, so I was able to take my time, and this job was done back in the summer.

Anyway... 1.3 multijet diesel sump replacement is a truly awful job to do, especially laid on your back on a gravel driveway!

I even bought a Haynes manual, but it wasn't a great help.

I did manage to do it without actually removing the exhaust pipe, but I did have to get in from the top to undo the bolts attaching (what I think is) the cat in order to drop it the length of the bolts - which is just about enough.

The key to the job is the realisation that you must remove several bits of seemingly unrelated metalwork and bracketry to get to the gearbox-end of the sump. This involves the rear engine mounting bracket and a large aluminium casting which looks to be part of the gearbox but is actually separate. Once you've got those off / out of the way past the exhaust pipe you can get to the (completely hidden) sump bolts which are tucked away.

Then, for me, by far the hardest part of the job was actually removing the old sump. I ended up using a sturdy ratchet strap, pulling downward, hooked into the sump drain hole and led to a large 4WD towbar (the Panda was on wheel-ramps and I had some sturdy timbers as cross-beams). This didn't actually work until I eventually also used a blowtorch to weaken the old gasket sealant - which finally did work.

Reassembly was simple by comparison.
 
I have not done this job (yet). I recently bought Popitinpete's MultiJet which has a broken timing chain so it will happen.

In my case the engine is coming out of the car as the oil pump/chain cover etc has to come off along with all sorts of other gubbins on that end of the engine. He says the clutch is quite new but I intend to change the gearbox oil seal while all in pieces.

The best option with a rusty sump is to use an old wood chisel or very slim (and sharp) fox wedge to separate the joint. Once it's started, the sealant should tear quite easily. I was going to say, that I hope to keep the old sump, but at £20 for a new one I wont be bothering.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313&_nkw=291910588872&_sacat=0

I've just found this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/23268233...294743&hash=item362cf2a12b:g:LJMAAOSwrRlZnu7d Sump pan, pumper sealant, oil and filter for £45. Flippen 'eck!

This is a Fox Wedge
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144179764958?hash=item2191c89ede:g:mJUAAOSwk7lhLqKm
Angle grinder and flap wheel will sharpen the thin end to be used for separating the sump pan. Face the flat side to the main bearing carrier and (of course) be careful.
 
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Just a word of warning... I've had to replace sumps on a couple of Panda MultiJets. The job itself isn't fun, but definitely easier with the engine out. BUT steer clear of the cheapest aftermarket sumps - I've come across 2 that caused problems so far. One would not seal properly (I didn't fit it, but ended up replacing it again as a favour), and I am fairly sure the other caused the oil pressure light to come on when idling with a hot engine.

I believe the contour of the bottom of the sump was slightly wrong, and it was either blocking or having some wierd effect on the oil pick up pipe. I had bought the car with the problem, expecting to break it up, but when I got round to draining the oil the sump plug thread just turned. I checked with the previous owner and found it had probably had 8 oil changes in about 6 weeks, trying to solve the oil light problem. Good MJ engines with known history are rare, so I put a new sump on to have a go at solving it. Suddenly no Oil Pressure light problem, and all I did was change the sump (and obviously the oil).
Result.
And the original reason for the sump change was... fitting a new cam chain needs the sump to come off, and the original looked scruffy, so new cheap one was bought off eBay.
 
I would support what irc has to say about cheap sumps. I bought a cheap one from my local factor for our 1992 Panda Parade (999cc Fire engine) and failed to get a decent seal on it so had to strip it off, clean it up - including the block faces of course - and try again. Second time around I dry fitted it first and you could plainly see the fit around the front and rear was very poor. I used considerably more sealant than I felt happy with (worried about sealant detaching and blocking up the oil pickup) and got a good seal but I wouldn't recommend it.
 
I would support what irc has to say about cheap sumps. I bought a cheap one from my local factor for our 1992 Panda Parade (999cc Fire engine) and failed to get a decent seal on it so had to strip it off, clean it up - including the block faces of course - and try again. Second time around I dry fitted it first and you could plainly see the fit around the front and rear was very poor. I used considerably more sealant than I felt happy with (worried about sealant detaching and blocking up the oil pickup) and got a good seal but I wouldn't recommend it.

strange most motor factors also supply to the local motor trade

last thing they want are warranty claims and loss of business

never had any problems with part supplied by my local motor factors

CES and General Traffic cheap and up to the job

Buying from eBay can be a lottery though. Sometimes you win sometimes you loose
 
strange most motor factors also supply to the local motor trade

last thing they want are warranty claims and loss of business

I'm not at odds with what you are saying here and, as I've mentioned before on here, I do buy quite a bit of stuff from my local factors without any problems but I am careful to ask what brand they are selling me. That particular sump was bought quite a few years ago now and it was particularly cheap - which was what tempted me into buying. That particular factor is now part of a large national group and I'd be surprised if they'd sell anything not up to standard today. I have read of people buying poor quality steel sumps though so I would still caution folk to be careful where they source such items - but that is probably just good advice for anything you're buying, eh?

I haven't myself fitted a sump in some years but last winter we had Kenny's garage fit a sump to my boy's Punto, which had rusted through, (didn't fancy doing it out in the cold!) and I was interested to find out where he bought it. "GGB" said he, "I always keep a couple of the Fiat steel sumps in stock as we do so many of them" GGB rang no bells with me so I googled them. Guess what? it seems to be another name Shop4parts use - possibly for trade sales?
 
Shop 4 Parts dont sell rubbish

1.2 sump is £32 incl VAT delivered
https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=882

The JTD Multijet diesel sump is £26 or you could buy genuine for £374 inc VAT
https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=4654

The 1.4 has a cast aluminium sump for £80
https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=26886
Strange the 1.4 16v in my Tipo is a pressed steel suml rather like on most other fiat engines and not the style there
Guess they changed it for cost reason's
 
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