Technical 100HP Rear Axle Beam - rot

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Technical 100HP Rear Axle Beam - rot

unfortunately none of the online eper I use list the 100HP

As with a lot of thing someone has to be the first and do the development work.

With what we have gained so far as in the length of the centre section are identical on all Panda models. I think an email to a universal axle supplier is in order. By stating all disc and drum is implying it should work for the 100HP. If they say yes I suspect the diesel disc axle should also be a straight swap if you can find one ???
 
My MJ has drums on the rear. I thought it was only the 100HP that had rear disks?
 
My MJ has drums on the rear. I thought it was only the 100HP that had rear disks?

its listed how common they are I can't say
 

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This IS different from the 100HP because the lip is in the way of the handbrake cable run - which explains why the disk brake models (100HP and 4X4) require a different assembly - so it is not just minor bracketry...

The standard drum brake axle as fitted to my 1.2 does NOT have that lip on the outer face of the hub mounting bracket (pictures on the first page of my thread below).

So any second-hand axle and most replacement 169 axles shouldn't have this problem.

I know DaveMcT has had the axles off both his 1.2 and 100HP - I'm pretty sure he found the axles were identical. Maybe he'll be along soon and able to confirm this?:)
 
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Does the website list 500 as the same as Abarth.. no crossovers to panda ?

we know that the centre section of the 500 axle is wider. Its been measured and photographed.

Not a safe substitution in my opinion. I know others will argue otherwise. Everything has a knock on effect. When fiat changed the rear they changed the front to match. I would not fit a 500 to my car. I would not advise others to on an open forum.

But what others do is up to them. There was a time when getting the correct axle was difficult and the 500 were easier to get hold of. But seeing as the breakers are full of the correct ones I don't see the point


I would like to know why some rot and some don't. 350, 000 miles between my last two car and nearly another 200K on a punto all fine. Latest car is worse 77K but is still solid
 
I have replaced the Panda 169 1.2 axle with a 2015 500 1.2 axle. It was a 100% straight swap and will work with up to 14" Fiat/Panda wheels. The rear track is 50mm wider so the 500 axle will not straight swap to the 100HP (wider wheels and plastic wheel arch covers).

I have had my 100 HP axle grit blasted and zinc metal sprayed. I took the whole lot off the car. The hand brake cables are an awkward fit and the brackets are not brilliant. However, I noticed zero difference to the 1.2 axle. The 100HP has longer hand brake cables as they have to reach the caliper. The 100HP brake cables go into a bracket on the caliper and would operate fine while flapping loose. The axle clips simply keep it tucked in (and rub into the cable sleeve). IMO all they need is a hose to sleeve over the cable and P clips to hold them in place. Drill and tap the beam to M6 for the clips.

Hydraulic pipes on the 100HP are better replaced with a HEL custom braided hose. Use one line from the underbody hard line to the caliper. Don't be tempted to use a banjo at the caliper as you need some slack hose for replacing brake pads. Get the lines made with plenty of barrel grommets. Use P clips or zip ties to hold to the swing arm.

For modifying a 500 axle, I would -
Make flat plates that accurately fit the stub axle face and bolt on with LONG "all thread" studs.
Weld strong temporary brackets top and bottom to the swing arm.
You can now cut out the excess chassis metal and measure the gaps accurately.
Fit 25mm spacer blocks (and longer bolts) between the stub axle face and the temporary bracket. This retains alignment while you weld it up. Weld it up and finally cut off the temporary brackets.

This temporary bracketry is needed to copy the old bracket location and later jig the new position. "All thread" studs and spacer blocks keep it all square and aligned. The other way would be a full jig that the whole axle slots into. Even then, the stub axle brackets are your only datums.

The stub axles are the same on 500, Ka and Panda. My brother says the rear drum brakes look identical to his 1980s Uno. I'd be surprised if they are not used on the Punto. rear disc brakes? Who knows, but the caliper looks suspiciously like the one used on Honda Jazz.
 
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Wonder how easy is would be to upgrade the rears to disks. Any thoughts ?

yes possible

As with anything its best to consider the system as whole.

I would find a donor vehicle. Then check the whole system for any differences.

Master cylinder, front callipers, front disc and so on.

with ABS systems sensing each wheels its harder to upset the system.


I have a 2011 with drums now and the brakes are much better than the 05 and 06. I don't know what's changed or just different brand of pads and shoes. The 05/06 weren't bad but the 11 is an order better
 
The rear drums are perfectly good enough. ABS works differently with discs or drums so its probably not a useful swap.
 
The 500 axle is wider at the hub mounting brackets. They flare out from the swing arm tube whereas the 169 Panda brackets are straight to the swing arm with no flare. Centre sections are the same except the 500 has an anti roll bar built into the beam. It rides stiffer than the 169 panda so has to be used with 500 springs which are 30% softer. It also rides lower so you need a rubber spring bush at top and bottom.

The Panda 169 has a 10mm narrower track at the rear
The Smart ForTwo has a 20% less wheelbase with nearly 4 inches wider track at the back than at the front.

Panda 100HP
https://www.autoevolution.com/cars/fiat-panda-100hp-2006.html#aeng_fiat-panda-100hp-2006-14
Wheelbase - 90.5 in (2299 mm)
Track Front/Rear - 54.3/53.9 in (1,379/1,369 mm)

Panda 1.2 Dynamic
https://www.autoevolution.com/cars/fiat-panda-2003.html#aeng_fiat-panda-2003-12
Wheelbase - 90.5 in (2299 mm)
Track Front/Rear - 53.8/53.4 in (1,367/1,356 mm)

60bhp Smart ForTwo (2012 to 2014)
https://www.autoevolution.com/cars/smart-fortwo-2012.html#aeng_smart-fortwo-2012-10-61-hp
Wheelbase - 73.6 in (1869 mm)
Track Front/Rear = 50.4/54.3 in (1,280/1,379 mm)
 
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I don't understand the above post

comparing a front wheel drive transverse engine Panda

To the smart four two rear engine, RWD car. With big tyres on the rear and skinny at the front

Apples and Pears.

100HP and Dynamic work out the same if they have the same width tyres and rims.

the 500 is different and always has been.
 
Having looked at the link that is embedded in one of the KOALAR's responses contained within the thread he offered, it looks like the 'eurosubframes' version is without upper lip, which is why they quote it as being universal. This suggests that at least one manufacturer has followed my logic (pre-empted to be more accurate) and makes one which is suitable for both types, by leaving the original design's top lip off the stub axle plate.

These are about the best images I could find that show the stub axle plate on the original drum brake 169 Panda axle. I hope you don't mind me half-inching one of your photos @DaveMcT:eek:

rear axle 08b.jpgIMG_2684_zpsynvquw9y.jpg
If you can compare this plate to that on your 100HP, and,
If the 100HP axle is the same width,
Then hopefully your 100HP parts should bolt on to a standard 2003-2012 169 axle (as detailed above the 500 axle is too wide to work on the 100HP without modification).
Either second-hand or a faithful recreation of the original. IM Axles advertise on this site, might be worth checking with them?

Fingers crossed!:)
 
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Message an eBay seller


there's a few description like this


FITS

Fiat Panda 2003-2012, Diesel and Petrol, RHD and LHD both models
Fits both Brake Discs and Brake drums form 2003 to 2012

FIAT NUOVA PANDA - MY - CLASSIC
1.2 8V
1.1 2V - 1.2 2V - 1.3 2V - 1.4 2V
ACTUAL
DYNAMIC
EMOTION
2-SEATER VAN
VAN 4 SEATERS
ALESSI
1400 16V CF4

Please Note: This item will not fit
4x4 cars
NATURALPOWER
TREKKIN 4X4
CROSS-4X4
CLIMBING4X4
ADVENTUR 4X4
 
I don't understand the above post

comparing a front wheel drive transverse engine Panda

To the smart four two rear engine, RWD car. With big tyres on the rear and skinny at the front

Apples and Pears.

100HP and Dynamic work out the same if they have the same width tyres and rims.

the 500 is different and always has been.

The OP is talking about modifying a 500 axle to remove the wider track but that's only needed for the 100HP with its wider wheels. But you seem to think the use of a more compliant rear axle is always a bad idea even when it's a straight swap. The track difference is not a stability issue. Hence the comparison to Smart which has a huge track difference. With great respect (not meant in the disrespective way), it's not apples and pears.
 
FWD vs RWD
weight front vs weight rear
165 tyres front and 185 rear vs same front and rear

apples and pears


increased rear axle width equals increased understeer whether is a family car or F1 car


Because its not crashed is not relevant.


Its a modification and the insurance company needs to be informed and premium paid to drive the car legally


Far easier and safer to fit the correct part.
 
The OP is talking about modifying a 500 axle to remove the wider track but that's only needed for the 100HP with its wider wheels.

No, OP is asking if drum brake 169 axle will fit their 100HP as 100HP axles are hard to source.

OP has confirmed 100HP axle is the same width between stub axle plates.

The only remaining question is, are the stub axle plates the same? (So that OP can bolt their 100HP parts to a standard 169 axle).
 
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the only remaining question is, are the stub axle plates the same?

We know for certain that the beams are different from the Fiat master parts catalog (they have different part numbers and the catalog says the 100HP one is for the 1.4 only). What we don't know is exactly how they are different, and what the significance of that difference is to someone wanting to fit a standard axle to a 100HP.

Ideally we need someone who has both OEM axles stripped down to take some careful and accurate measurements.

The aftermarket situation is, frankly, a mess, with about as many different views about what fits which models are there are resellers. For example, Imaxles sell the same part as being suitable for 500's both pre and post 2010 model year changes; there's a substantial difference in the torsional rigidity of the two beams and, IIRC, neither the springs nor the dampers are interchangeable - their website makes no mention of this.

The aftermarket beams may fit dimensionally, but I'm wondering how much thought has been given to matching the torsional characteriatics of the OEM parts? There's a lot more to making a twist beam than just welding up some pieces of steel that fit into the space.

As Koalar says, the twist beam is a key component affecting the way the whole suspension system interacts; a lot of thought and testing no doubt went into the original design, and just bolting something on because it fits, or can be adapted to fit, could have a significant negative impact on the handling and stability of the car. The OEM part may not be the best engineered component Fiat have ever made, but it has at least gone through Euro NCAP testing and type approval; I've no idea how the aftermarket parts would perform in such tests.

My take on this is that prevention is better than cure; if your beam is currently in sound condition, do what you can to keep it that way.
 
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:yeahthat:


there is a pattern part on ebay at just over £100 that lists the 100HP. But if it was me I would be looking at seeing if disc axle was the same.


not sure but original part looks like its designed to bend if rear impacted
 

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By happy coincidence it is quite likely that I will have the following beams available in the same location next week:
Off cars:
Generic replacement Panda Beam (IMAXLE version I think, but won't know until it arrives)
2004 Panda beam (Drum brake)
2011 500 beam (Drum brake)
On cars:
2008 100hp beam (Disc brake)
2008 500 beam (Drum brake)
2010 Panda beam (Drum brake)

If we can agree what measurements etc. we all want, I will try to get them done.
Obviously easier to measure & photograph the first 3, but I can probably get the others on axle stands at some point during the week.

Anyone interested?
 
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