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Technical Swooshing water

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Technical Swooshing water

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raleig653

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Hi,

I have 2005 Panda dynamic. Every time I start the car there is a swooshing sound coming from behind the dashboard or possibly the engine. The same happens when I turn the car off. I’ve checked posts on the forum that have suggested it could be to do with the coolant. I did bleed it a little and some air did come out followed by a bit of coolant. I topped it up, but I still get the same swooshing sound.

The temperature gauge is a bit vague, it hovers half way between 1/4 and a 1/2 on the gauge. As I drive it sometimes drops a little then rises again, but never over 1/2, even after sitting in stop-start traffic for a couple of hours. The car has never overheated. I also get hot air through the vents no problem. Yet, the swooshing sound remains. I did think the car was holding water somewhere, but there is no sound of moving water as I drive. Is it just an ageing car with a few quirks, or is there something wrong!

Grateful for any thoughts on this, Gerald.
 
Welcome.

The first issue I wouldn’t worry about if the coolant level is correct and doesn’t move. One of ours occasionally done similar.

However your thermostat sounds like it’s had it and is jammed open, causing your car to overcool. This can cause issue and reduce fuel economy, so ideally should be changed.

Good news is a genuine OEM thermostat and gasket should be no more than £30 from a main dealer. Personally I avoid pattern part thermostats as they tend to be poor quality and fair prematurely within a year or two, so are a bit of a false economy.
 
Brilliant, many thanks for that. Helpful to know. I bought the car just under two years ago and it’s been perfect, but the temp gauge has always settled just below 1/2. Only in the last couple of weeks has it begun to change. I’ll check on a new thermostat. Cheers.
 
Hi and welcome, ref problem, 1st thing check duckbills back of engine were wiper blades are, if blocked one issue.2nd water noise from behind dash indicates air in coolant system. 3rd issue thermostat stuck open,renew, the gauge should always be on half way as if its printed on...Hope this helps
 
midnight578 said:
Hi and welcome, ref problem, 1st thing check duckbills back of engine were wiper blades are, if blocked one issue
Click to expand...

This, I had a sloshing water noise behind my dash after some heavy rain one day, and under the scuttle panel, I found what could only be described as a lake! Plastic duckbills get clogged full of muck and that area fills up. Bad bit of design but easy enough to clear out, just use a screwdriver to dislodge the muck and prepare for a big mess!

Other than that it definitely sounds like a thermostat issue, at least it isn't stuck closed!

I also had a bit of air in my coolant system once, which sounded like a gurgling noise on the left side of the dash, bled the heater core hose using the little screw on it and it lessened, then revving the engine a bit seemed to dislodge the rest of the air.
 
Low coolant causes gurgling noises as air goes through the heater matrix. It's usually closely followed by a blown head gasket.
 
I've had the low temp "syndrome" for a little over a year now, it's a not uncommon complaint - runs at around the 1/4 mark on the gauge unless stuck in summer traffic when it goes up to normal (1/2 way) but backs down to 1/4 when you get under way again. I've at long last ordered a new thermostat from Shop4parts. Having had a number of their cheaper Original Birth branded products, which have all been of good quality, I have decided to go with one of them. They also sell the genuine Fiat one at a reasonable price. It's worth knowing that you need to buy the gasket separately with the genuine part whereas the Original Birth one has a gasket with it in the box.

I'll try to do some pictures when it arrives and then also when I'm fitting it. I'll not be doing it in the rain though so maybe a wee while before I post.
https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=470

I'm trying to remember the last one I did, which was a few years ago now. I seem to remember the disc part of the thermostat has a rubber seal round it's edge? and, if I remember correctly, the rubber had perished and was not properly preventing water from flowing past it. This, of course, lets some hot water out of the top of the engine and into the radiator when it should only be circulating round the heater circuit. Which explains why the engine doesn't get properly hot. On the other hand maybe my memory is playing tricks on me and it wasn't the Panda at all. One thing for sure, all will be revealed shortly, when I get a nice dry day to work.

By the way, for anyone like me with a late model 169, the thermostat on the later 69 hp engine (which came in in 2011) is different to the earlier 60 hp engine which is the one that fits mine. The later item is quite a bit more complicated, and expensive, as it includes the temp sensor and a connection to the heater hose. If you're undecided which one you need S4p will quickly tell you from either your reg no or Vin no.
 
Pugglt Auld Jock said:
runs at around the 1/4 mark on the gauge unless stuck in summer traffic when it goes up to normal (1/2 way) but backs down to 1/4 when you get under way again
Click to expand...

This is 100% indicative of a failing thermostat inner seal; a new thermostat is the only fix, but fortunately it's a straightforward job and the part will only cost you about a tenner.

Pugglt Auld Jock said:
If you're undecided which one you need S4p will quickly tell you
Click to expand...

You can tell for yourself even quicker by looking to see if there are any wires connected to the thermostat housing - if there are, they'll be connected to the temperature sensor and you have the later type of thermostat. I don't believe this later type is anywhere near as likely to fail; fortunate, because they're about four times the price.

The earlier type of thermostat has no wiring attached.

The seal which fails is buried in the innards of the thermostat, where you can't see it; if you just do a boiling water test, the thermostat will open and close normally, leading you to the mistaken conclusion that there's nothing wrong with it.

I've done one myself in less than half an hour.
 
Last edited:
jrkitching said:
The seal which fails is buried in the innards of the thermostat, where you can't see it; if you just do a boiling water test, the thermostat will open and close normally, leading you to the mistaken conclusion that there's nothing wrong with it.

I've done one myself in less than half an hour.
Click to expand...

That sounds very much like what I remember JR. and, as you say, the symptoms are so typical of a failing thermostat I've no doubts at all that replacing it's going to solve the issue.

Looking at the installation it looks as if I will be able to gain adequate access by simply removing the coil packs from the end of the head. I notice though that my Haynes manual advises removing the battery and ECU - which I would rather just leave where it is. I didn't remove the battery or ECU when I did the cam belt a couple of years ago and I seem to remember access looked quite good. Can I ask what you did to complete it in less than a half hour?
 
Pugglt Auld Jock said:
Can I ask what you did to complete it in less than a half hour?
Click to expand...

Disconnect the battery and unbolt the ECU carrier, but leave all the other wiring connected. You can then remove the battery and battery tray, swinging the ECU and its attached wiring to one side.

Syphon out enough coolant to drop the level below the thermostat housing; if you use clean equipment, you can put it back in at the end of the job.

Then unbolt the thermostat, remove it, disconnect the hose (easier once it's removed) and clean up the mating face.

In this case, unusually, reassembly really is the reverse of dismantling.
 
jrkitching said:
Disconnect the battery and unbolt the ECU carrier, but leave all the other wiring connected. You can then remove the battery and battery tray, swinging the ECU and its attached wiring to one side.

Syphon out enough coolant to drop the level below the thermostat housing; if you use clean equipment, you can put it back in at the end of the job.

Then unbolt the thermostat, remove it, disconnect the hose (easier once it's removed) and clean up the mating face.

In this case, unusually, reassembly really is the reverse of dismantling.
Click to expand...

yep (y)

on cars with the twin coil packs on the side of the head I move them out of the way


its only a few bolts you don't have to disconnect any of the wires. Makes cleaning the mating surfaces easy otherwise you have to use a camera as you can't see the area directly


done it with and without moving them out of the the way. You can do a better job and quicker of you do.
 
koalar said:
yep (y)

on cars with the twin coil packs on the side of the head I move them out of the way

its only a few bolts you don't have to disconnect any of the wires. Makes cleaning the mating surfaces easy otherwise you have to use a camera as you can't see the area directly

done it with and without moving them out of the the way. You can do a better job and quicker of you do.
Click to expand...

This is my philosophy. Taking off enough stuff to get the job done with easier access pays dividends, because the job gets done properly.
 
DaveMcT said:
This is my philosophy. Taking off enough stuff to get the job done with easier access pays dividends, because the job gets done properly.
Click to expand...
I'm a subscriber to that viewpoint Dave but I'm always nervous about disturbing wiring I don't have too, especially where older big fat looms are concerned, where the insulation of individual wires may have degraded and hardened making them liable to cracking if disturbed. I was looking at my particular setup:

P1090539.JPG

When I did my cambelt I didn't disturb the battery or ECU but removed the coils and cam cover end plate when I removed the cam cover. It looks like access to the thermostat will be good if I do the same here and just let the ECU/Battery alone? If I remove the ECU/Battery the coil packs will still, to a certain extent, overhang and obstruct access to the end of the head where the thermostat is located won't it?
 
Very excited. S4p delivery just arrived. As usual very well packed in a robust cardboard box with lots of bubble wrap inside.

My past experience with the FIRE engines in the several Pandas we've had is that thermostats are not an especially long lived component so I swithered as to whether to buy a genuine Fiat one or go with S4p's Original Birth brand. In the end I went with the OB as it was cheaper and includes a gasket - which you must buy separately with the genuine Fiat one:

P1090540.JPG

Some of the ones I've been looking at are pretty rough, but I'm impressed with the quality of the casting on the OB which is nice and smooth and shows no signs of porosity:

P1090542.JPG

I think the problem causing early failure is because they use a rubber seal around the edge of the main valve disc - as you can see here:

P1090541.JPG

I'm sure this makes for a good seal when it's closed but the rubber degrades with heat and time and then water creeps past when it's closed and you end up with the problem of an engine which doesn't get properly hot - as is being discussed in this thread. I can't really think of another design which uses this rubber seal, they are usually metal to metal. Here you can see the rubber sealing ring. It withdraws towards you, together with the disc it's fitted to, to let the water pass and go off up the top radiator hose to the radiator. when it's wax capsule heats up enough.

Also in my wee "treasure trove" is a genuine Oil filter. If you look around on you tube and 'tinternet generally you'll find ever so many posts about oil filters and it's been years since I bought a cheap one but, some time ago I just couldn't resist a couple of filters really cheap in a 2 for 1 offer at one of our local factors - Both the Panda and Punto take the same filter. But when I got them home and looked inside with a bright light at the element itself I thought the retaining mesh, which holds the element paper in place, was too fine and consisting of fine "slits" which the oil might find difficult to get through:

P1090545.JPG

Compare that now to the genuine Fiat/Lancia/Alfa labeled product:

P1090550.JPG

See what I mean? I'm sure the oil will get through that much more easily, especially when it's getting near the end of life. I was pleased to see both makes included anti drain back diaphragms but the genuine Fiat one felt really positive when gently poked with a wee screwdriver tip whereas the cheapie felt rubbery and not all that keen to move. I think I'm going to go back with them and risk asking them to swap both the cheapies for a Mahle filter which is a brand I know and trust and I know they sell them. Then I'll still have a filter for both vehicles. Think they'll do it or kick me out the door? Got to give it a try though as I'm not going to use the "cheapies" Lesson well learnt!
 
Last edited:
Pugglt Auld Jock said:
Very excited. S4p delivery just arrived. As usual very well packed in a robust cardboard box with lots of bubble wrap inside.

My past experience with the FIRE engines in the several Pandas we've had is that thermostats are not an especially long lived component so I swithered as to whether to buy a genuine Fiat one or go with S4p's Original Birth brand. In the end I went with the OB as it was cheaper and includes a gasket - which you must buy separately with the genuine Fiat one:

View attachment 215058

Some of the ones I've been looking at are pretty rough, but I'm impressed with the quality of the casting on the OB which is nice and smooth and shows no signs of porosity:

View attachment 215059

I think the problem causing early failure is because they use a rubber seal around the edge of the main valve disc - as you can see here:

View attachment 215060

I'm sure this makes for a good seal when it's closed but the rubber degrades with heat and time and then water creeps past when it's closed and you end up with the problem of an engine which doesn't get properly hot - as is being discussed in this thread. I can't really think of another design which uses this rubber seal, they are usually metal to metal. Here you can see the rubber sealing ring. It withdraws towards you, together with the disc it's fitted to, to let the water pass and go off up the top radiator hose to the radiator. when it's wax capsule heats up enough.

Also in my wee "treasure trove" is a genuine Oil filter. If you look around on you tube and 'tinternet generally you'll find ever so many posts about oil filters and it's been years since I bought a cheap one but, some time ago I just couldn't resist a couple of filters really cheap in a 2 for 1 offer at one of our local factors - Both the Panda and Punto take the same filter. But when I got them home and looked inside with a bright light at the element itself I thought the retaining mesh, which holds the element paper in place, was too fine and consisting of fine "slits" which the oil might find difficult to get through:

View attachment 215061

Compare that now to the genuine Fiat/Lancia/Alfa labeled product:

View attachment 215062

See what I mean? I'm sure the oil will get through that much more easily, especially when it's getting near the end of life. I was pleased to see both makes included anti drain back diaphragms but the genuine Fiat one felt really positive when gently poked with a wee screwdriver tip whereas the cheapie felt rubbery and not all that keen to move. I think I'm going to go back with them and risk asking them to swap both the cheapies for a Mahle filter which is a brand I know and trust and I know they sell them. Then I'll still have a filter for both vehicles. Think they'll do it or kick me out the door? Got to give it a try though as I'm not going to use the "cheapies" Lesson well learnt!
Click to expand...

There was a good article online a few years back, I think it was on here but I’ve had a look and can’t find it, comparing OEM oil filters with pattern parts.

Was very interesting and essentially shows OEM to always be a better quality, better and more filter medium etc vs even decent branded pattern parts. As such for oil filters I’ve always gone OEM, there’s not normally much of a price difference from personal experience.
 
Well, I woke up all full of enthusiasm to get stuck into Becky and change her thermostat, maybe do plugs too while I've got the HT leads off - she's still got the same plugs in her that were there when we bought her some 3 years ago! Also it'll only take a moment to pop the air filter off and fit the new breather hose that's been lying in my spares box for nearly 6 months now. So I pulled the curtains and it's horrid out side, drizzly rain and the cars have a light dusting of sleet. Weather man is saying there's considerable risk of snow late in the day and overnight into tomorrow so I think she'll just have to wait a little longer. Wonder what's on Talking Pictures today?
 
Pugglt Auld Jock said:
Well, I woke up all full of enthusiasm to get stuck into Becky and change her thermostat, maybe do plugs too while I've got the HT leads off - she's still got the same plugs in her that were there when we bought her some 3 years ago! Also it'll only take a moment to pop the air filter off and fit the new breather hose that's been lying in my spares box for nearly 6 months now. So I pulled the curtains and it's horrid out side, drizzly rain and the cars have a light dusting of sleet. Weather man is saying there's considerable risk of snow late in the day and overnight into tomorrow so I think she'll just have to wait a little longer. Wonder what's on Talking Pictures today?
Click to expand...

you don't take the HT leads off. just unbolt and more aside


I would only do one thing at once. If you move or change more than one thing and somethings aren't as expected there only one thing to check.
 
Granted, Of course you're right, Pulling the leads from the coil packs will let me see if there is any corrosion starting on the HT terminals though? and I might as well do the other work whilst I'm in there then there's less to do in preparation for her MOT which is mid March. The air and pollen filters were done last year and she's only done a couple of thousand miles on them so really only the engine oil and filter to do and that's the under bonnet stuff done. In fact if I get a rain free day doing all that would be easy to achieve in the one day, with time to check out the brakes too?
 
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