General gear oil spec,s

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General gear oil spec,s

That's a classic symptom of a worn gearbox input shaft bearing. It's allowed to run free in neutral so you hear the rattle. Putting the pedal down supports the shaft and damps any noise so the rattle goes away. To confirm, press a long screw driver to the clutch end of the gearbox and press the handle against your head just behind your ear. With engine running, you will hear the noise change as the clutch is open/closed.

It a common problem on many cars. Some have double sealed greased bearings (other like Fiat) do not.

correct sounds like input bearing

if there's play. It will chew through the input shaft seal

there an inspection hole on the top of the bellhousing. If there's oil on the inside its best to fix before the bearing lets go


that's assuming its not already been changed and the bellhousing left dirty. Unlikely.
 
The sort of grumble I heard has pretty much stopped, but I will give it a look soon. Is it pretty easy to access/check through the inspection hole? Obviously replacing it will be a gearbox out job, and I ain't that good!
 
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The screwdriver listening method is the best test. A normal input bearing should sound much the same regardless of the clutch being up or down.

Leaving it until the seal is leaking (never mind clutch slipping) is risky. Steel balls wont be a welcome addition to the gears spinning away just below.
 
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The sort of grumble I heard has pretty much stopped, but I will give it a look soon. Is it pretty easy to access/check through the inspection hole? Obviously replacing it will be a gearbox out job, and I ain't that good!
Hi again RW!:D Here's the relevant picture of the inspection hole in the top of the bell housing. It's hidden under a coolant hose so I had to push this out of the way:
panda clutch 01.jpg
I stuck a finger in and it came out black and oily, with the distinctive smell of transmission oil.

This was the state of my input shaft bearing at 105k miles. All the ball bearings are present, but the bearing cage has disintegrated, and the inner race is badly pitted:
panda clutch 05.jpgpanda clutch 09b.jpg
I don't want to alarm you though. I know @koalar looked at a lot of gearboxes to replace his damaged box, and a worn bearing seems fairly typical. It might soldier on to the next clutch change, but obviously if the bearing does break up it could be nasty.

My gearbox itself was behaving absolutely fine; I was investigating a slipping clutch. Which I suspect was caused by an engine oil leak through a failed crankshaft main rear seal rather than the worn input shaft bearing.

Regarding the difficulty of the job, I'm no mechanic but I didn't think there was anything too technical about it, it's just a lot of work. I was careful, took my time and spent a lot of time cleaning things. Apart from that, quite an enjoyable couple of days throwing spanners under the car and 'itting things wi't'hammer:)
 
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Aye I saw your write up with the pics, very well done, will no doubt be useful when I get round to it! When we get a spot of nice weather I'll have a gander.
 
Mine was quite noisy at idle (in neutral out of gear with the clutch up it had sort of a low grumble to it, clutch down? Silence!) and it also had quite a whine to it when driving. After the oil change, the noises are still there, but much less pronounced. Gear shift feels a lot smoother too, seems to pop into gear much better, took it for a 40 mile drive today and it's loosened up nicely, best it's been since I got the car 3 years ago. I will also add the old oil had a light dusting of gear glitter in it, but not a huge amount!

I did get that crunch you mentioned when shifting into 3rd occasionally, but I have not had it since I changed the oil, only time will tell once I have a chance to put some more miles on it!

Her indoors and I have done a couple of journeys since replacing the input shaft bearing (and clutch) and we both noticed how much quieter the car is now. Gearchange is considerably improved.

Our transmission was probably making similar noises to yours after all, but I hadn't paid it any attention:eek:
 
For completeness this is @ Mr Wild's writeup on fixing gearbox bearings. It's a Punto but pretty much the same gearbox.

https://www.fiatforum.com/punto-ii/158346-input-shaft-bearing-renewal.html

His pictures and comments at Post 8 show an integral sealed bearing.

Ok here are the photos I took while I was doing it.

Firstly remove the 5 bolts securing the selector housing and withdraw it vertically:
DCP_2835.JPG


Note the position of the gear selectors inline for reattachment:
DCP_2831.JPG


Undo the 6 or so bolts securing the gearbox to the bell housing:
DCP_2828.JPG


As you withdraw the gearbox from the housing, a fork attached to the bell housing prevents you from fully extracting the gearbox, undo the bolts indicated to detach the fork:
DCP_2821.JPG


One of the selectors is attached to the fork via this plunger head, and can be popped out by yanking it if required, we found ours had come out. Check that it is correctly secured when reassembling:

DCP_2826.JPG


Once that's done, you should be able to withdraw the input shaft from the bell housing, and separate the gearbox, at which point you can inspect and replace your input shaft bearing indicated, making a note of its position on the shaft, I used a mallet and screw driver to take off the old one, and a bit of wood to bash the new one (pictured) on, I took the opportunity to spray it all clean with about 2 cans of cleaning solvent:

DCP_2815.JPG


Looking at the reverse side of the bell housing, you can see the input shaft oil seal, this took a bit of work to get out and to replace, screwdriver to bash the old one out, and a bit of dowel to tap the new one in, mine distorted a bit as I did this, but I was able to bend it back into shape with a driver once I had it in place:

DCP_2809.JPG


When reassembling use sealant to prevent any leaks, I used Locktite, not sure if it's the right one, it's an anerobic sealant, was the same colour and they use it all the time on the machine gaskets at work, I'll post the product details later if anyones interested:
DCP_2818.JPG


(we were a bit too liberal in this picture):
DCP_2832.JPG


To refit the box, just reverse the process above, good luck!

Bearings bottom and seals top, new to the left, old to the right, inner race of old bearing pitted from grinding, bearing walls non-existant, replacement part for a Punto Mk2 1.2 8v engine is an SKF explorer 6204-2RSH, same as OE part and purchased from
1
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230260988866&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=013, I have no idea about gearboxes or bearings for them I simply rang the bloke in the advert for part information:

DCP_2808.JPG


Hope this helps!

Just did a quick search and it seems they're a lot cheaper to buy elsewhere, the benefit of hindsight!

http://www.bearing-king.co.uk/product/538
 
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For completeness this is @ Mr Wild's writeup on fixing gearbox bearings. It's a Punto but pretty much the same gearbox.

https://www.fiatforum.com/punto-ii/158346-input-shaft-bearing-renewal.html

His pictures and comments at Post 8 show an integral sealed bearing.

the proper bearing is 6204.A.G15J30 which is equivalent to BB1 0566 SKF


I have taken two gearboxes apart. Panda and 500


neither have sealed bearings


as I have already pointed out. A sealed bearing is a bad idea in the long term. This area is flooded with oil


the side that looks like its sealed. It isnt its a reinforcement support for the cage and oil can still enter
 
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the proper bearing is 6204.A.G15J30 which is equivalent to BB1 0566 SKF


I have taken two gearboxes apart. Panda and 500


neither have sealed bearings


as I have already pointed out. A sealed bearing is a bad idea in the long term. This area is flooded with oil


the side that looks like its sealed. It isnt its a reinforcement support for the cage and oil can still enter

This gearbox has suffered failing input bearings long before the Panda 169. Properly lubricated bearings don't fail with pitted races and ball cages falling apart so that oil lubrication looks doubtful at best. I appreciate that Mr Wild was working on a Punto. But he listed SKF explorer 6204-2RSH (2RS = double rubber seal).

https://www.bearingshopuk.co.uk/6204-2rsh/?msclkid=5d2f0d94777218e5c2f26de2cde68aa0
 
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This gearbox has suffered failing input bearings long before the Panda 169. Properly lubricated bearings don't fail with pitted races and ball cages falling apart so that oil lubrication looks doubtful at best. I appreciate that Mr Wild was working on a Punto. But he listed SKF explorer 6204-2RSH (2RS = double rubber seal).

https://www.bearingshopuk.co.uk/6204-2rsh/?msclkid=5d2f0d94777218e5c2f26de2cde68aa0

so the
NTN SNR catalogue is wrong as are other catalogues
the two I changed were wrong
and the one in this video is wrong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH3EU-mQVhg


the original certainly from 2004 are 7 ball bearing held by a glass reinforced polymer cage with a reinforcing ring one side and no seals. Well the ones I touched.


this is the way Fiat designed it this way even though they are not cheap. The other end of the shaft are normal cheap sealed bearings.
 
so the
NTN SNR catalogue is wrong as are other catalogues
the two I changed were wrong
and the one in this video is wrong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EH3EU-mQVhg


the original certainly from 2004 are 7 ball bearing held by a glass reinforced polymer cage with a reinforcing ring one side and no seals. Well the ones I touched.


this is the way Fiat designed it this way even though they are not cheap. The other end of the shaft are normal cheap sealed bearings.
Here's another way of doing it which looks a little more "fun"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-R5DkY81oc The interesting thing is the input shaft bearing does look as if it's got no seals? Or maybe just all fell to pieces? Does look like a 7 ball assembly though?

On reflection I think I like this way of doing it as it's going to be much easier to check all the other bearings and really get into all the nooks and crannies to clear out any debris. I notice the other bearings, from what can be seen of them, are sealed type, but you can only see the one side here. Anyone know if they have seals on both sides? I'm interested because if so that would tend to keep "foreign bodies" out of the races if only the input shaft bearing had failed. As gearboxes go this one looks quite "doable" as a home project, although I have to say the chap in your video koalar would do well to invest in a nice steel tray or somewhere he could work which would not introduce contamination whilst confining all that "messy" oil!
 
Here's another way of doing it which looks a little more "fun"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-R5DkY81oc The interesting thing is the input shaft bearing does look as if it's got no seals? Or maybe just all fell to pieces? Does look like a 7 ball assembly though?

On reflection I think I like this way of doing it as it's going to be much easier to check all the other bearings and really get into all the nooks and crannies to clear out any debris. I notice the other bearings, from what can be seen of them, are sealed type, but you can only see the one side here. Anyone know if they have seals on both sides? I'm interested because if so that would tend to keep "foreign bodies" out of the races if only the input shaft bearing had failed. As gearboxes go this one looks quite "doable" as a home project, although I have to say the chap in your video koalar would do well to invest in a nice steel tray or somewhere he could work which would not introduce contamination whilst confining all that "messy" oil!

original in both c510 and c514 dont have any seals on the input bearing they are flooded in oil. Some look like there's a seal on one side. Its just a strengthening ring for the cage.

yes the others are sealed both sides


the video is speed up. The rear cover is only thin aluminium plate and held on with loads of gasket. Its a pain cutting it off and cleaning back up thats not need just for the input bearing and seal.

those large rear nuts are both peened and very tight. A professional impact wrench is needed

I took the rest of the scrap gearbox apart. If you want to replace all the bearing a hydraulic press would be handy
 
Here's another way of doing it which looks a little more "fun"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-R5DkY81oc The interesting thing is the input shaft bearing does look as if it's got no seals? Or maybe just all fell to pieces? Does look like a 7 ball assembly though?

On reflection I think I like this way of doing it as it's going to be much easier to check all the other bearings and really get into all the nooks and crannies to clear out any debris. I notice the other bearings, from what can be seen of them, are sealed type, but you can only see the one side here. Anyone know if they have seals on both sides? I'm interested because if so that would tend to keep "foreign bodies" out of the races if only the input shaft bearing had failed. As gearboxes go this one looks quite "doable" as a home project, although I have to say the chap in your video koalar would do well to invest in a nice steel tray or somewhere he could work which would not introduce contamination whilst confining all that "messy" oil!

Many cars use greased sealed bearings for the primary shaft. It makes sure they are always lubricated. Other bearings sit in oil so no problems with dry starts. Honda Jazz has a greased sealed input shaft bearing.

It would be nice to know how Mr Wild's gearbox faired after his repair, but I think he'd have "fessed up" if there had been an issue with wrong parts.
 
Many cars use greased sealed bearings for the primary shaft. It makes sure they are always lubricated. Other bearings sit in oil so no problems with dry starts. Honda Jazz has a greased sealed input shaft bearing.

It would be nice to know how Mr Wild's gearbox faired after his repair, but I think he'd have "fessed up" if there had been an issue with wrong parts.

It lasted two years and changed again as a precaution


even though its the same basic gearbox going back through several models it is constantly changing and evolving


Fiat put sealed bearing everywhere else

But an open cage for the input, The one changed on here recently, my two (Panda, 500) and the two in the video have an open cage. That's 5 I know of that use an open bearing in this location and 6 if you include the NTN-SNR catalogue which has a nice picture of a Panda with all the bearing marked and listed


Its a special bearing and costs more.


I not sure why Fiat did it this way. But when I changed mine I put like for like. Its having a hard life at the moment with only town stop start driving.
 
original bearings are good for at least 200,000 Miles as long as they have an ample supply of clean oil and driven properly

Lack of maintenance probably has more to do with the failures than a design fault.


I bought a car with a failed bearing. This was just after the clutch had been changed. I know of one other that failed after a clutch change.

coincidence possibly.
 
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So long as I can't actually hear any metal grinding, I assume everything's fine...

Thought I'd update this, gearbox finally bit the dust a few weeks ago! The new oil dampened the noise for a few months but it returned with a vengeance. 4 weeks ago I noticed a burning smell under moderate acceleration, and then a drip. Got it up on ramps and oil was all over the bell housing and inside the inspection cover I was greeted with an oily mess! Needed it fixed quickly so went to the local garage and I had the gearbox rebuilt. Now I've got it back I've noticed it's never been this quiet, so it must have been going when I got it!
 
original bearings are good for at least 200,000 Miles as long as they have an ample supply of clean oil and driven properly

Lack of maintenance probably has more to do with the failures than a design fault.


I bought a car with a failed bearing. This was just after the clutch had been changed. I know of one other that failed after a clutch change.

coincidence possibly.

The interior of my six speed looks absolutely lovely. The input and layshaft roller bearings are absolutely stunning. However the gearbox input seal was as hard as nails and leaking oil onto the clutch. That's now been changed along with the clutch which smelled of gear oil. I now have a leak from the near side output seal which is a concern because I changed it less than a year ago. At least that's the easy one to fix.
 
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