Technical Punto 75 head swap info

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Technical Punto 75 head swap info

basshunter98

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I have a 2005 panda with 188a4000 60hp engine, Euro 4 but still the old head with the squared oil cap. I am a complete beginner from a mechanical point of view.

Although there is zero documentation of this work being done on a Panda 169, I want to install a 1.2 75hp head of the punto mk1. The problem is that from the web i've seen that in between the outer intake holes and the screw holes there is no material, while in our head it is full and leveled of aluminum. Do you by any chance know if I can still install the 60hp plastic intake manifolds on the 1.2 75hp cylinder head despite the differences?
Thank you very much in advance, I will keep you updated in this thread.:bang:
 
It can be done, is it a straightforward job, not really but take a look at this thread from the Punto forum, Loads of info there.

He is basically modifying the mk1 punto inlet, i would like to keep or modify my 1.2 8v MPI Euro 4 plastic inlet and TB if possible, so i can keep the original airbox.

And btw my panda still has the throttle cable.
 
why ?


aren't there easier options in Italy ?

Ofc, in our junkyards we can find every possible FIAT motors, even 16V. The real problem is that during MOTs and police stops, they can open your bonnet (during MOT they WILL) and you can be sure that they will recognize a panda engine. Basically it's like cooking pasta, every italian knows what a 1.2 8v FIRE looks like and sounds. Changing only the head while keeping everything else stock-ish including the airbox it's my way of preventing my car from being impounded.
Once again the only problem is these damn plastic intake manifolds which seem to be incompatible:bang:
 
higher lift cam and remap ??? can the cams be swapped ???

is there a thinner head gasket ???


to release any extra horses from the punto head the ECU is going to need to know the cam is different otherwise it will probably loose horse


you need to know someone how tunes the FIRE engine


the short answer is I don't know and its the sort of thing I have seen in this section.

the older small FIRE engined cars were raced and more commonly hot rodded boy raced so there might be more information in those sections
 
higher lift cam and remap ??? can the cams be swapped ???

is there a thinner head gasket ???


to release any extra horses from the punto head the ECU is going to need to know the cam is different otherwise it will probably loose horse


you need to know someone how tunes the FIRE engine


the short answer is I don't know and its the sort of thing I have seen in this section.

the older small FIRE engined cars were raced and more commonly hot rodded boy raced so there might be more information in those sections

Sadly i really don't know if there's any difference between punto mk2 188a4000 and panda 188a4000, so i might be the first to do it on a panda. In italy i've been quoted 900E to get my own camshaft reprofiled and head tuned, i really don't think it's worth it. I can get a completely new punto 75 head for 190E.
 
The old school tuning methods involved valve port work and head skimming to increase compression ratio. Check out what David Vizard says about the old "classic" A Series Mini engine. He is covering a particular engine but much of what he says applies to any engine.

His got amazing results with a single carburettor. The biggest gains were head work and manifolds especially the exhaust.
 
Just an update: i've talked to a bunch of mechanics and they say that the punto 75 head is not compatible with a panda head because of a motor support. I'm currently changing my plan to: stock head, punto 75 stock 4-2-1 exhaust header with decat and fake 2nd lambda, sport filter and exhaust. Stage 2 will be 866 camshaft, -900g flywheel and a remap. I'm now aiming for power in the low rpm range. What do you think of it?
 
What do you think of it?

Probably not what you want to hear, but I think you'd do better to just change to a different car that has the performance you want. Not only will this get you more performance for your money, but it will also keep you on the right side of whatever laws apply in your country.
 
agree with the post above. 9 times out of 10 your better of starting with a more powerful car


everything has a knock on effect.


just changing for example just the air filter and exhaust you will loose horsepower. You need to book an hour on a rolling road and that assuming you can find somewhere that can remap the fiat ECU. Which here in the UK would be both difficult and expensive


The Panda exhaust system does not fit onto the Punto exhaust manifold The Punto has a flange joint.

going down a similar root on a Corsa B 1.6 and third party ECU (not cheap)is going to over 200HP and if you spend a few thousand more 250HP
 
agree with the post above. 9 times out of 10 your better of starting with a more powerful car

I don't want and need a faster car, I just want to bring out the small hidden potential of this engine spending as little as possible and exploiting the resources of the Italian junkyards

just changing for example just the air filter and exhaust you will loose horsepower. You need to book an hour on a rolling road and that assuming you can find somewhere that can remap the fiat ECU. Which here in the UK would be both difficult and expensive

I live in italy, i can get my panda remapped for as cheap as 80E. The IAW ecu is very simple.


The Panda exhaust system does not fit onto the Punto exhaust manifold The Punto has a flange joint.

I know! But if my calculations are correct, i can do at least stage 1 for approx 150E with used parts. I am making a Frankenstein header-back exhaust joining the punto headers (4->2) and their pre-cat section (2->1) with the panda central pipe and its exhaust.
 
I'm now aiming for power in the low rpm range.

Most tuning mods won't give you that. If anything, you'll likely move the power band higher up the rev range.

Even the factory haven't managed it. The Euro5 version of the 1.2 FIRE has an extra 15% power on paper (69HP vs 60HP), but rolling road tests have shown that the later 69HP engine actually produces less power below 3500rpm.

I've got cars with both engines. For day to day driving, I'd take the 60HP version over the 69HP one any day of the week. It's simply nicer, quieter, smoother and more comfortable to drive.
 
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De-catting gives more power at the expense of a filthy exhaust. Please don't do that. Go for the tubular manifold and just fit a bigger cat to the single outlet.
 
De-catting gives more power at the expense of a filthy exhaust. Please don't do that.

:yeahthat:

This is a 'dinosaur project' - the sort of thing folks did in the 1960's, when there weren't many options for factory built small performance cars, and almost nobody bothered much about environmental issues.

A more contemporaneous idea might be to take a stock base model Panda and see what you could do to make it more environmentally friendly and less reliant on fossil fuels. Come up with something interesting, post a few youtube videos and you just might get a knock on the door from someone offering you an interesting career.

Do what the OP is proposing, post a few youtube videos and the only people knocking on your door will be the local police.
 
:yeahthat:

This is a 'dinosaur project' - the sort of thing folks did in the 1960's, when there weren't many options for factory built small performance cars, and almost nobody bothered much about environmental issues..

Well i never had a decat car, and for now this is just a theory and soon a test piece. Reality will be slightly different and probably i'll not like the exhaust fumes and end up using the full p75 exhaust with its OEM cat or an aftermarket sporty one that can still pass MOT. One thing for sure, the p75 stock 4-2-1 is going in for science.
 
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The 4-2-1 manifold is fine, but just add a decent size cat between that and the exhaust system. Something from a bigger engine will give good gas flow and will properly clean the fumes.
 
UPDATE! i found a 1.2 P75 RACING engine in a junkyard but the bottom half was broken..
The head was completely intact and I found 4-2-1 inox headers with 2 o2 sensor holes, 200 CPSI sport cat, a silencer, and a Colombo Bariani road medium camshaft with variable cam pulley for 150E total. I've been very lucky this time!
Now i just need make them fit under a panda! This is going to be huge!
 
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