Or like NGK says on their website: 25Nm.
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Technical Spark Plug Replacement
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Technical Spark Plug Replacement
Aye, but most will not have torque wrench going that small. The simple option that I use works fine and no fannying about.
Using a torque wrench is obviously the foolproof way to do it (although even then you can run into problems - for instance, did the previous installer use an anti seize grease?)
25 NM is not all that far from how tight you would do up an 8mm bolt? Many people do spark plugs up far too tight. If you are fitting a new plug including it's new washer then this washer is a "crush washer" and you can use that fact as a guide. Tighten the plug into it's hole by hand - most are too deeply mounted these days to actually grip the plug electrode with your fingers but you can still spin it down until the washer is just seated by spinning the socket &/or it's extension bar with your fingers. This should ensure you don't cross thread it. Now install a "T" bar or ratchet or tool of your choice to the end of the extension and start to tighten the plug. You'll find it will turn a wee way almost without resistance as the final little bit of play in the threads/washer is taken up then it will suddenly become more difficult to turn. At this point all the "slack" has been taken up and further tightening is going to start crushing the washer. Of course this is what we want to achieve so continue tightening and crushing the washer. This will take more effort but the turning effort will remain the same because the washer is crushing (ie it's not getting harder to turn the wrench handle). I would say most plugs will go about half a turn to achieve this. When the washer is fully crushed the wrench will very quickly become much harder to turn - as there's no more "give" in the washer now - and this is when you stop.
Some types of plug seal with a taper seat and have no washer. With practice you can still do them by "feel" but a torque wrench is highly recommended if you have little experience. Luckily our wee FIRE engines use a washer type plug!
Some plugs can be very difficult to get into their holes due to depth and general location. For many years I've stuck the ceramic end of the plug in a length of 3/8" bore rubber hose. Then you can stick it down the hole and twiddle the hose with your fingers secure in the knowledge that the plug will not damage the thread because it will spin in the rubber pipe before any thread damage can occur also It's easy to pull the tube off once the plug is engaged with it's thread and then stick your plug spanner down the hole to tighten it up:
For many years I've had plug sockets with a wee rubber bung inside to grip the plug in much the same way as the bit of tube. Trouble is the rubber bung invariably falls out after a while. Then I decided to buy magnetic sockets. They have a magnetic ring inside which holds the plug's hexagonal metal part. The magnet is not too strong so the socket stays on the end of your extension, not on the plug, when you withdraw the socket after tightening. Here, on the left is my oldest one with rubber bung missing. Then a slightly newer one still with it's bung and then two with the magnetic rings. If I were just starting out today I'd buy the ones with the magnetic rings:
Ps Obviously using the crush of the washer to judge tightness is only going to work with a new washer! Once installed and crushed, if you remove and reinstall the plug the washer has already been crushed first time round so can't be crushed a second time. If you try you will likely strip the thread! You just have to judge the right tightness - which is, of course, going to be the final tightness you exerted first time you installed it!
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Aye, but most will not have torque wrench going that small. The simple option that I use works fine and no fannying about.
My fairly common 1/2" drive Norbar goes from 10 to 150 Foot pounds. 23Nm is 18 Flbs so well within it's range.
But I have had it for donkey's years so things may well have changed. This is similar though won't be the same quality.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-2-Driv...323107&hash=item3d2387586b:g:xQ0AAOSwfC9XPcKz
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Most wont have torque wrench period, is really what I’m saying.
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Forgot to mention my actual preference for spark plugs above - got carried away thinking about my relatively new magnetic sockets!
Until very recently I've never had the need to investigate anything other than a standard "copper" spark plug. When servicing one of the "family Fleet" vehicles I tend to go by whatever is recommended by the supplier and I've found the standard fitment to be entirely satisfactory. Platinum and Iridium spark plugs are quite a new concept to me and very expensive in my perception. However I will be fitting the relevant version to my Ibiza which specifies them as standard and has one of these small stressed turboed petrol engines so I don't want to give it any excuse to suffer from LSPI - which is a big problem with some of these types of engine (thankfully the VAG examples don't seem to be particularly prone)
I generally change the "standard" copper plugs every second year in the family vehicles. My younger boy's 2007 Astra 1600 estate, which is his work vehicle, covers the highest mileage of any of them. 2019 he did nearly 15.000 miles but it will be less this year. However he's owned that car for a number of years now and we've never had a problem with plugs. This model is well known for coil problems though and it has had a coil pack. Although I renew the plugs every second year I still remove them and re-gap if needed at the minor service interval. (ie every year.) In fact I do that on all the vehicles except our Becky (2010 Panda 1.2) which only does a couple of thousand miles a year and has been running on the same plugs since I bought her (nearly 3 years ago now?) They do get gapped every year though just like the others.
The Ibiza is now just coming up on 5 years old and will have done about 25,000 miles by then without me having touched the plugs! Although the mileage is very low for this type of plug (platinum I believe?) the SEAT dealer, and my local indy, recommend replacement at 5 years if you're not doing the mileage. I'm going to pull them and have a close look before making up my mind whether to "splash the cash". I've heard that on cars with these plugs which last so long - so maybe changing at 60,000 miles or 5 years, maybe more? - there can be problems with the coils getting "stuck" on the plugs to such an extent that the coil gets damaged during removal. (these are "coil on plug" type.) I'm not looking forward to it all that much! It used to be that leaving plugs in for several years was a very bad idea anyway because the threads could corrode into the threads in the head. Both the afore mentioned workshops said this seems not to be a problem so much now because the plug manufacturers are electroplating the plug threads to stop corrosion being a problem - Hmm? We'll see!
So, I suppose, my experience is to use the plug recommended as standard fitment. Which, to date has been the "cheap" standard copper type and this has worked well for me. I don't fit "cheap" plugs though! Often they will be NGK and I always buy from a trusted source. The market for counterfeit car parts in the UK is definitely a problem. I've read a couple of articles in trade journals lately about it. I would certainly not be buying any parts to service my car from an unknown vendor at the local Sunday market!
Until very recently I've never had the need to investigate anything other than a standard "copper" spark plug. When servicing one of the "family Fleet" vehicles I tend to go by whatever is recommended by the supplier and I've found the standard fitment to be entirely satisfactory. Platinum and Iridium spark plugs are quite a new concept to me and very expensive in my perception. However I will be fitting the relevant version to my Ibiza which specifies them as standard and has one of these small stressed turboed petrol engines so I don't want to give it any excuse to suffer from LSPI - which is a big problem with some of these types of engine (thankfully the VAG examples don't seem to be particularly prone)
I generally change the "standard" copper plugs every second year in the family vehicles. My younger boy's 2007 Astra 1600 estate, which is his work vehicle, covers the highest mileage of any of them. 2019 he did nearly 15.000 miles but it will be less this year. However he's owned that car for a number of years now and we've never had a problem with plugs. This model is well known for coil problems though and it has had a coil pack. Although I renew the plugs every second year I still remove them and re-gap if needed at the minor service interval. (ie every year.) In fact I do that on all the vehicles except our Becky (2010 Panda 1.2) which only does a couple of thousand miles a year and has been running on the same plugs since I bought her (nearly 3 years ago now?) They do get gapped every year though just like the others.
The Ibiza is now just coming up on 5 years old and will have done about 25,000 miles by then without me having touched the plugs! Although the mileage is very low for this type of plug (platinum I believe?) the SEAT dealer, and my local indy, recommend replacement at 5 years if you're not doing the mileage. I'm going to pull them and have a close look before making up my mind whether to "splash the cash". I've heard that on cars with these plugs which last so long - so maybe changing at 60,000 miles or 5 years, maybe more? - there can be problems with the coils getting "stuck" on the plugs to such an extent that the coil gets damaged during removal. (these are "coil on plug" type.) I'm not looking forward to it all that much! It used to be that leaving plugs in for several years was a very bad idea anyway because the threads could corrode into the threads in the head. Both the afore mentioned workshops said this seems not to be a problem so much now because the plug manufacturers are electroplating the plug threads to stop corrosion being a problem - Hmm? We'll see!
So, I suppose, my experience is to use the plug recommended as standard fitment. Which, to date has been the "cheap" standard copper type and this has worked well for me. I don't fit "cheap" plugs though! Often they will be NGK and I always buy from a trusted source. The market for counterfeit car parts in the UK is definitely a problem. I've read a couple of articles in trade journals lately about it. I would certainly not be buying any parts to service my car from an unknown vendor at the local Sunday market!
Just a thought. Don't think I'll be recommending Iridium plugs to my youngest boy's wife who runs a 2008 Jazz with the IDSI engine - so twin spark with 8 plugs! Otherwise a pretty standard 1.4 runaround.
The engine is almost designed around the spark plug. The only time you will have problems with standard plugs is if they are fake ones from online sites, incorrectly fitted or damage while fitting
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To be fair, I hardly ever use my torque wrench and I have a smaller 1/4" drive for little jobs on the bikes, also almost untouched. I do new spark plugs with the hand tight and 1/2 turn method and it's never failed me.
My Yamaha 900 bike (aircooled with exposed plugs) needed new ones every 10,000 miles. A bit of a hassle but at £4 per plug not too bad. I never used longer lasting plugs, because when I left them much longer they could be a real struggle to get out. The threads were seizing enough for me to worry that a plug might shear off despite a light touch of anti seize paste.
On the Pandas I put a smear of anti seize on the plug top positive and silicone grease on the rubbers. They still stick, but do come out better than fitting them dry.
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I order new ones - just the cheap NGK ones
I used my reg number and the ones that came are the EURO 5 ones with the longer bit at the top.
I am pretty sure my car is Euro 5 as the 1.2 petrol euro 5 is the 69 PS model whereas before that the 1.2 was 60 PS
So it looks like you may be right and the wrong plugs are in it
I'll try the new ones tomorrow.
Thanks for the pics
They
I must be missing something
the original
zkr7a-10 were more than likely fitted by fiat as the fiats part number on them 55188857
and appear to be correct via the engine code in the 2016 catalogue http://autoesfera.pt/resources/NGK2016.PDF
I could easily be wrong though
the original
zkr7a-10 were more than likely fitted by fiat as the fiats part number on them 55188857
and appear to be correct via the engine code in the 2016 catalogue http://autoesfera.pt/resources/NGK2016.PDF
I could easily be wrong though
Oh man .. I am so confused
The plugs I ordered are zkr7a-10 and they have that code on the box and on the spark plug itself
Yet the top does seem to be a different design !
I suppose i just fit them and see what happens!?
can you post a picture from all angles please. Doesn't sound right. Should look exactly like the ones you took out as far as I know.
The Sp's are the same size but just the ends are different.
From what I can see and from JRKITCHENS photos the new ones are correct but wierd that the old ones aren't
The car has done 60,000 so maybe they have been incorrectly replaced previously ?
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the threads look rough ?
stamping looks deep ?
heres a genuine one http://www.fiat500usa.com/2010/02/inside-fiat-500-spark-plugs.html
going to have a look at my own car while there's a bit of light. I will have a proper look in a hour or two
stamping looks deep ?
heres a genuine one http://www.fiat500usa.com/2010/02/inside-fiat-500-spark-plugs.html
going to have a look at my own car while there's a bit of light. I will have a proper look in a hour or two
I've been thinking about this one and all the excellent advice being given here. So now here's my ha'penny worth.
The important thing to establish here is whether this is a euro4 or euro5 As the euro 5 was introduced to the 169 Panda in 2011 this makes things a little more difficult. I think from the engine number you are quoting yours is a euro 5 69 hp motor. It's actually very easy to tell. Open the bonnet and look at the timing belt end of the engine. now look just to the right and on top of the cam cover. There's a sensor with wires coming out of it. It's plug has a yellow locking slider:
This is the cam position sensor
Now look to the right of it and you'll see a wee flange sticking up from the cam cover, just in front of that wee "valley":
This is where the VVT solenoid is screwed in. My engine is a 60hp so it doesn't have this. The solenoid actually screws into the back of this flange. Here's a shot of mine from the back and you can see it's got a hex socket blanking plug in it to stop the oil coming out.
So, simply put, if you have that solenoid you've got a VVT cam pulley and so it's a euro5 with 69hp. No solenoid and hole plugged with that hex plug? then it's a 60hp like mine. If you're still feeling unsure please post a picture of this part of your engine and we should be able to advise.
Now, as to the plugs. Shop4parts website is very helpful here.
The Panda2 (04 to 09) has the "short tip" plugs:https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=2363
The Panda3 (09 to 12) shows both long tip and short tip options: https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=...anda_III_(09_to_12)_1.2_8v_Spark_&_Glow_Plugs This is because the 169 model continued to be produced until 2012 but the 60hp engine was replaced by the 69hp engine in 2011. If you ring S4p with your chassis number they'll definitively tell you the correct plug for your actual vehicle.
Then from 2012, when the new model came in (Panda4) they were all fitted with the 69hp engine so all used the "long tip" plug as the website shows: https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=2362
One last wee thought on this. When it first was introduced the 69hp engine attracted quite a lot of criticism. People were complaining of hesitation and lack of power etc. I have to say I've only driven the 1.4 vvt in my boy's 2012 Punto and so not a 1.2 but everyone says the Euro 5 needs to be rev'd more to produce power whereas the euro 4 has more low down lugging performance. There's also stuff about how the ecu takes a signal from the clutch switch which can interfere with moving off from rest (there was a big stushy on watchdog about this and there's a thread in the 500 section - if I remember correctly? Not having a 1.2 euro 5 I've not really explored it much. However it occurs to me that there might be an element of this factor in your experience.
The important thing to establish here is whether this is a euro4 or euro5 As the euro 5 was introduced to the 169 Panda in 2011 this makes things a little more difficult. I think from the engine number you are quoting yours is a euro 5 69 hp motor. It's actually very easy to tell. Open the bonnet and look at the timing belt end of the engine. now look just to the right and on top of the cam cover. There's a sensor with wires coming out of it. It's plug has a yellow locking slider:
This is the cam position sensor
Now look to the right of it and you'll see a wee flange sticking up from the cam cover, just in front of that wee "valley":
This is where the VVT solenoid is screwed in. My engine is a 60hp so it doesn't have this. The solenoid actually screws into the back of this flange. Here's a shot of mine from the back and you can see it's got a hex socket blanking plug in it to stop the oil coming out.
So, simply put, if you have that solenoid you've got a VVT cam pulley and so it's a euro5 with 69hp. No solenoid and hole plugged with that hex plug? then it's a 60hp like mine. If you're still feeling unsure please post a picture of this part of your engine and we should be able to advise.
Now, as to the plugs. Shop4parts website is very helpful here.
The Panda2 (04 to 09) has the "short tip" plugs:https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=2363
The Panda3 (09 to 12) shows both long tip and short tip options: https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=...anda_III_(09_to_12)_1.2_8v_Spark_&_Glow_Plugs This is because the 169 model continued to be produced until 2012 but the 60hp engine was replaced by the 69hp engine in 2011. If you ring S4p with your chassis number they'll definitively tell you the correct plug for your actual vehicle.
Then from 2012, when the new model came in (Panda4) they were all fitted with the 69hp engine so all used the "long tip" plug as the website shows: https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Product&ProdID=2362
One last wee thought on this. When it first was introduced the 69hp engine attracted quite a lot of criticism. People were complaining of hesitation and lack of power etc. I have to say I've only driven the 1.4 vvt in my boy's 2012 Punto and so not a 1.2 but everyone says the Euro 5 needs to be rev'd more to produce power whereas the euro 4 has more low down lugging performance. There's also stuff about how the ecu takes a signal from the clutch switch which can interfere with moving off from rest (there was a big stushy on watchdog about this and there's a thread in the 500 section - if I remember correctly? Not having a 1.2 euro 5 I've not really explored it much. However it occurs to me that there might be an element of this factor in your experience.
I'd say that's pretty much for certain what has happened.
The new ones you have now are the correct OEM plugs for the Euro5 engine as fitted to the 169 Panda from mid 2010 onwards.
The engine can be safely run on either type; I suspect any difference due to the projected tip will be marginal at best. The new plugs were developed by NGK for Fiat specifically for this engine, and AFAIK are not used anywhere else.
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Very informative PlugitAuldJock!
I took these pics and I think they confirm that the reg docs are correct and that my car is a 69hp euro 5 car
I have put the spark plugs in and have to assume that the old ones were incorrect.
I took these pics and I think they confirm that the reg docs are correct and that my car is a 69hp euro 5 car
I have put the spark plugs in and have to assume that the old ones were incorrect.
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