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Old 22-08-2020   #1
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Clutch heavy. (almost) everything replaced

Hello,
My 2010 Panda has just 36,000 miles. Clutch has been heavy for a while, and getting worse. This is what I've tried so far:
  1. Replaced slave cylinder with an aftermarket LUK one (retained existing hydraulic pipework)
  2. Removed transmission, replaced clutch with genuine Fiat 3 part kit and replaced the fork bushes but not the fork while I was in there. Everything seems clean and smooth. Put the usual dab of high melting point grease on the splines of the gearbox shaft.
  3. Replaced master cylinder with genuine Fiat part 55225453 which technically is for the Fiat 500 but is identical to the Panda one, except it comes without the fluid reservoir and pipes (it's about one third of the price)
  4. Thoroughly bled the system and replaced all fluid.
The pedal is no better - it's still really stiff even though the clutch works perfectly. It's quiet, gears engage easily, biting point is normal and pedal returns normally. It's just very stiff. The pedal itself is fine when disconnected from the master cylinder - extremely smooth and light.

Now when I remove the slave cylinder, I can't move the clutch actuating arm on the top of the bell housing at all (well there is about a millimetre of slack before the fork contacts the release bearing so the fork is clearly not jammed). Is that what you'd expect?

Where do I go from here? I could possibly remove all the hydraulic pipes and check fluid can pass freely through them. I've not attempted to uncouple the quick release between the slave cylinder and master cylinder pipework and I've read previous posts about this connector which suggest it could be internally corroded. Last resort would be to drop the gearbox again and replace the fork and bushes but I really don't think there's anything wrong with them and it's a long job to do by yourself on the drive. Is it normal to not be able to move the actuator arm at all by hand?

Thanks
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Old 22-08-2020   #2
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Re: Clutch heavy. (almost) everything replaced

Hi.

Read Jocks tale with a punto evo

Hydraulic issue

https://www.fiatforum.com/grande-punto/476387-clutch-problem-help-anyone-4.html
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Last edited by varesecrazy; 22-08-2020 at 20:47.
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Old 22-08-2020   #3
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Re: Clutch heavy. (almost) everything replaced

There have been a few reports of pedal shaft seizure, mostly I think on 500, which has a cross shaft, so is a little different. But still worth checking.

Disconnect the master from the pedal and check the pedal movement. If tight, don't waste time with WD40 or similar, the pedal shaft has to come out to clean and lubricate it properly.
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Old 23-08-2020   #4
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Re: Clutch heavy. (almost) everything replaced

Thank guys. The pedal is light and smooth with the master cylinder disconnected. Hydraulics seem perfect. There's no sponginess and the slave cylinder rod starts to move as soon as the pedal is pressed. It's just hard!

The fingers in the new clutch felt stiff just like the old ones. I'd been expecting them to feel a bit softer.

Anyone know if it should be possible to operate the clutch by hand using the release arm on the gearbox bell housing without the slave cylinder fitted? There is no chance in mine. Super hard!

The only thing I can think to do is pull the gearbox again and replace the actuator fork.
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Old 23-08-2020   #5
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Re: Clutch heavy. (almost) everything replaced

You cannot operate the clutch by hand using the lever on the gearbox. If it was that easy, it would not grip under power.

Similarly, you should not be able to move the clutch diaphragm fingers by hand either, so not a valid test.

Looks like the gearbox has to come out again.

Things to check.
Does the clutch bearing move smoothly on the nose of the gearbox? The gearbox nose can wear, allowing the bearing to tilt and grip. If lubricating it, use as little grease as possible.
(While we're thinking of grease, clean it off the gearbox splines. Leave dry, or lubricate with a soft pencil [graphite]. Grease will fling off onto the centre plate linings, and cause judder or slip. Even a tiny bit, almost invisible can cause judder.)

Check the alignment of gearbox to engine. It should fit onto dowels to ensure alignment. Check they are in place, and that the gearbox holes have not been damaged allowing any misalignment. The gearbox should always be fully home against the engine backplate before bolts are tightened. Often teh bolts are used to bring the two together, which can force the dowels to cut into the backplate or gearbox housing, or sometimes just push through so they do no work.

Check inside the clutch cover for any obvious damage or debris that might restrict its movement.

The pressure plate is connected to the cover by three spring steel straps. Check these are gently curved (nearly straight). They should not be bent. If a cover is dropped, they can take a lot of force and bend into a S shape, but their tension is lost. This usually results in slip or judder, not heavy operation.
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Old 23-08-2020   #6
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Re: Clutch heavy. (almost) everything replaced

Thanks, that's excellent advice. I did make a really good effort to clean the splines of the shaft and used a tiny amount of high melting point grease. The pressure plate is new and I was really careful to tighten the bolts evenly and to the correct torque. When I refitted the gearbox I was able to get hang it on the dowels on the engine block and push it fully home before tightening the bolts so I think it's OK but it was a bit of a struggle as I had the gearbox resting on my chest.

I've had the car from new and this is the first time the gearbox has been out - it feels exactly the same now as it did before I changed the clutch so if there is a mis-alignment which is causing the bearing to be tight on the shaft I don't think I've introduced it.

Do you think there could be a problem with the actuator fork? It looked perfect but I wonder if one of the two actuating faces is slightly further back from the other leading to the thrust bearing being pushed slightly out of line? I wish I'd changed it whilst I did everything else. The Mrs ain't going to be pleased when I go and spend another day "messing about with that car"
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Old 23-08-2020   #7
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Re: Clutch heavy. (almost) everything replaced

It is 10 years old, and only 36k, so been used for town journeys I'd guess. That probably brings a lot of clutch work for little mileage.

So check the fork for alignment of both forks, and the bearing carrier for smooth movement along the gearbox nose.

Have a very careful look at the clutch cover. Is it actually new?

Sometimes manufacturers supply reconditioned clutches as replacement parts. This may not be made clear when buying. If you still have the old one, compare the constrcution. Reconditioned ones tend to have different rivets, and may be finished differently, like being painted, it hides age well.

Was the box sealed when you got it?
Occasionally, a garage will clean up an old clutch and return it as an unused item for a full refund. The dealer parts guys, not being skilled technicians most of the time, will give it a cursory glance and put it back on the shelf for resale.
This can happen if they are trying to help out a customer with little money, or they misdiagnosed something and a new clutch did not cure the problem, or they are just rogues. They order a clutch kit, replace it, clean up the old one, return it as unused, get a refund, make a lot of profit.
When I worked at a Rover dealer, a long time ago, we had a garage that would try this regularly. The van driver accepting the return had to inspect it before accepting it, but occasionally one would get back to us. On one occasion, we managed to put it aside, and sell it to the same guy next time. He took it out of the box, and immediately complained it was an old one. So we proved that it was the one he returned. Didn't do it again, or at least, not to us.
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Last edited by portland_bill; 23-08-2020 at 22:46.
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Old 23-08-2020   #8
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Re: Clutch heavy. (almost) everything replaced

Quote Originally Posted by onecleanfinger View Post
Hello,
Replaced slave cylinder
replaced clutch with genuine Fiat 3 part kit and
replaced the fork bushes
Replaced master cylinder with genuine Fiat part

The pedal is no better - it's still really stiff

Thanks
I think I would try a bit of grease on the pedal pivot pin before buying any other parts and see if there is any difference. Its not the same testing with no load.


does to feel correct apart from stiff. Fiat have a common problem with the clutch pedals braking
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Old 24-08-2020   #9
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Re: Clutch heavy. (almost) everything replaced

Quote Originally Posted by onecleanfinger View Post

and replaced the fork bushes


Now when I remove the slave cylinder, I can't move the clutch actuating arm on the top of the bell housing at all (well there is about a millimetre of slack before the fork contacts the release bearing so the fork is clearly not jammed). Is that what you'd expect?

Last resort would be to drop the gearbox again and replace the fork and bushes

Thanks
you can not move the release arm under normal hand pressure


release bushs shouldn't need replacing for a second time. You do get fail on fit parts. But the chances here would be very small to get exactly the same problem. The bushes on Alfa cars are a source of a stiff pedal. Normally fixed by dribbling a bit of oil on them.

second I would try this bodge and see if there is any improvement.
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Last edited by koalar; 24-08-2020 at 11:11.
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Old 24-08-2020   #10
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Re: Clutch heavy. (almost) everything replaced

Is there any vertical play in the clutch fork assembly?
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Old 24-08-2020   #11
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Re: Clutch heavy. (almost) everything replaced

Quote Originally Posted by onecleanfinger View Post
Hello,
My 2010 Panda has just 36,000 miles. Clutch has been heavy for a while, and getting worse. This is what I've tried so far:
  1. Replaced slave cylinder with an aftermarket LUK one (retained existing hydraulic pipework)
  2. Removed transmission, replaced clutch with genuine Fiat 3 part kit and replaced the fork bushes but not the fork while I was in there. Everything seems clean and smooth. Put the usual dab of high melting point grease on the splines of the gearbox shaft.
  3. Replaced master cylinder with genuine Fiat part 55225453 which technically is for the Fiat 500 but is identical to the Panda one, except it comes without the fluid reservoir and pipes (it's about one third of the price)
  4. Thoroughly bled the system and replaced all fluid.
The pedal is no better - it's still really stiff even though the clutch works perfectly. It's quiet, gears engage easily, biting point is normal and pedal returns normally. It's just very stiff. The pedal itself is fine when disconnected from the master cylinder - extremely smooth and light.

Now when I remove the slave cylinder, I can't move the clutch actuating arm on the top of the bell housing at all (well there is about a millimetre of slack before the fork contacts the release bearing so the fork is clearly not jammed). Is that what you'd expect?

Where do I go from here? I could possibly remove all the hydraulic pipes and check fluid can pass freely through them. I've not attempted to uncouple the quick release between the slave cylinder and master cylinder pipework and I've read previous posts about this connector which suggest it could be internally corroded. Last resort would be to drop the gearbox again and replace the fork and bushes but I really don't think there's anything wrong with them and it's a long job to do by yourself on the drive. Is it normal to not be able to move the actuator arm at all by hand?

Thanks
Been scratching my head over this one, which isn't good as the scars have hardly healed yet from the scratching I did over my boy's 2012 Punto Easy 1.4 8 valve - as Charlie mentions.

Both PB and Koalar mention that you can will not be able to operate the external clutch operating arm (where the slave push rod locates) by hand and I agree. There will be a small amount of free movement until the fork moves the release bearing up against the diaphragm fingers then it will feel absolutely solid. You would need something like about a 6 foot piece of pipe over it to give enough leverage. Likewise with the diaphragm fingers, which you were I think trying to test off the car? If you lay the cover plate assembly - some call it pressure plate - face down on the ground and jump up and down on the fingers you might just move them a little.

We changed the Punto's clutch at around 54,000 miles I think and Becky's (our 2010 1.2 8 valve Panda dynamic Eco) at around 44,000 - I actually can't remember exact figures - and neither car showed any significant fork wear.

You've fitted a genuine Fiat 3 piece clutch set so I'd be pretty astonished if there's anything wrong with that providing it is actually the correct kit and it was sealed. If the box was opened when you got it, as PB says above, there are a small number of hooks crooks and comic singers out there "trying it on" to make more profit. Personally I never accept opened boxes. An opened box might contain something which looks correct but isn't?

With both our cars the actual clutch assemblies were worn but still just about serviceable and were not the cause of our problems. The root problem on both cars were the slave cylinders but the symptoms were misleading. On the Punto I convinced myself the problem - very low bite point - was due to the master cylinder as the slave looked perfect (no leaks) and bled through as you would expect. So first I renewed that and what an absolute swine that is to do on the newer cars! In the end I partially reassembled it and, with bleeding fingers, took it round to Kenny Harrisons as I just couldn't figure out how to remove it! Turns out most of the pedal cluster has to come out! I bled it through several times and it bled well but there was no improvement in the pedal. Still couldn't believe it was the slave so, as I was back round at Kenny's and feeling really fed up I got him to put a Valeo 3 piece kit in it. This did make a small improvement and the car was now driveable with the clutch freeing before the pedal hit the floor but still not how it should be. Kenny's foreman and self concluded that it had to be the, apparently perfect, slave cylinder so I bought a new one, fitted it and bled it out and, blow me, we had a perfect clutch pedal. I've wondered a lot about why it felt better after fitting the new clutch kit but before renewing the slave if it was the slave cylinder at fault all along and I have a theory. When a new clutch is fitted the driven plate (friction plate) lining material is thick (unworn) so the diaphragm is forced to assume an almost flat configuration when the bolts are tightened. This means there is less force required to depress the fingers than on a worn clutch where the diaphragm will be quite dish shaped due to the worn friction faces. (Often, if it's a model of car you work on a lot and are familiar with how a new one feels, you can get some idea how worn a clutch is from how heavy the pedal feels. It will get heavier as the lining wears). So I think our Punto pedal improved because not so much force was required to shift the new clutch assembly's diaphragm fingers thereby allowing just a little more movement.

The Panda pedal was similar but not so pronounced, with small screeching noises from the clutch as you let it bite so we put a new 3 piece kit in it. This cured the screech which, with hindsight, was I think due to a previous owner having cooked the lining at some time, but the pedal still went down quite a bit before the clutch would free up. I fitted a slave cylinder and it immediately came good and has been so ever since - however I'm not confident I won't need a master at some time! At least on the Panda it comes out through the engine bay, not internally past the pedals, so should be much easier done.

So my experience has been that, on both cars, the big problem was dodgy hydraulics and I suspect that's where you should be looking. So sorry though that I don't have a magic wand to wave and offer a definitive diagnosis of your specific problem. Oh, and yes, you can expect that connector in the pipe to fight you valiantly! The good thing is the operating pressure isn't anything like as high as with brakes and I was reading some where else on the forum about how you can cut the old joint out and use commercially available connectors to remake.

Good luck and do let us know how it all pans out won't you?
Regards
Jock
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Last edited by Pugglt Auld Jock; 24-08-2020 at 21:33.
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Old 25-08-2020   #12
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Re: Clutch heavy. (almost) everything replaced

This is such a good forum. Thanks so much guys. It was a new 3 piece clutch kit from S4P and as far as I can remember the box was sealed. It certainly looked new.

I've got a few things to check if it ever stops raining:

1. Pedal pivot. I doubt it's this because the pedal returns quickly when you let go and without the master connected you could easily push it down with just one finger, but you never know.

2. Vertical play in clutch actuator.

3. That hydraulic connector between the master and slave cylinder pipes. I might just cut it out and fit a straight union if I can find the right fittings.

One thing about the hydraulics that I wasn't satisfied was the bleed nipple on the LUK slave cylinder. I tried several bleed pipes but couldn't get a good fit on any of them and using a vacuum hand-pump to bleed I could never get a great seal on that nipple. I even tried a small cable tie over the bleed pipe. I would have gone for a pressure bleed but I don't have a suitable diameter adapter for the reservoir cap. I don't think there's any air in the system because the slave rod moves as soon as you start pressing the pedal but...
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Old 25-08-2020   #13
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Re: Clutch heavy. (almost) everything replaced

Have you compared it with another Panda? Is your pedal movement short and heavy as opposed to long and light?
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Old 25-08-2020   #14
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Re: Clutch heavy. (almost) everything replaced

Quote Originally Posted by onecleanfinger View Post
This is such a good forum. Thanks so much guys. It was a new 3 piece clutch kit from S4P and as far as I can remember the box was sealed. It certainly looked new.

One thing about the hydraulics that I wasn't satisfied was the bleed nipple on the LUK slave cylinder. I tried several bleed pipes but couldn't get a good fit on any of them and using a vacuum hand-pump to bleed I could never get a great seal on that nipple. I even tried a small cable tie over the bleed pipe. I would have gone for a pressure bleed but I don't have a suitable diameter adapter for the reservoir cap. I don't think there's any air in the system because the slave rod moves as soon as you start pressing the pedal but...
I found S4p after reading a recommendation for them on the forum and I've made a number of purchases from them. Everything has been of very high quality so I'd be most surprised if there was anything "wrong" with the kit they supplied to you. By the way, if you are ever in doubt about anything you want from them just give them a ring. I've done this a number of times and spoken to two different people - Mick and Mike would you believe? - They were both very pleasant and helpful and anxious to ensure I got the right part. Also, if you can't find what you want on their website it doesn't mean they don't have it. Sometimes it's stock they haven't had time to add to the lists yet - I think they are also into sourcing less popular items direct from Italy for you, although I'm less sure about this.

Regarding bleeding out the clutch. As you probably know, if you still have air in the system it's more likely it would give you a spongy feeling pedal with reduced length of stroke at the slave rather than a heavy stiff pedal. One of the things I did when trying to diagnose what was wrong with my boy's Punto was to measure the distance the release arm was being moved by the slave cylinder (I got Mrs J to sit in the car and fully depress the clutch pedal and then repeated the operation on our Panda - which is a virtually identical system) It was very obvious that the release lever was only moving about half the distance the Panda's did. It was at this point that the "Mk1 Jock computer" (my brain) came up with the wrong conclusion and I started to try replacing the master. (Kenny's foreman showed me the scars on his fingers too when I went to pick the car up, said he never wanted to do another one!) Apparently the slave is much harder to replace on the later model than on the earlier Grande Punto? I'm wondering if there's any way you could do a similar exercise on your car and compare it with a friends or maybe find a friendly Fiat garage who would let you check one of theirs - although good luck with that one! - I only mention it because I know Kenny would let me do it if he had a car in that fitted the bill. I could probably measure My boy's for you but he lives on the other side of town and we don't meet up face to face that often - 'phone a lot though - so it could be a week or so before I could measure it. He's a lovely chap but absolutely "handless" where practical stuff is concerned so there would be no point in me asking him to measure it - he just about knows how to check his oil and inflate the tyres! Do let me know if you'ld like me to do this though.

One last wee "stab in the dark". Our Punto is a 2012 Punto Easy 1.4 (8 valve VVT engine) and about half way along the hydraulic line from the master to slave cylinder there is a "strange" plastic molded fitting which is, I believe, a "pulse modulator". You can see it in this advert:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FIAT-PUNT...0AAOSw0yJed1lA

I'm not sure but I don't think earlier cars have this component? As I understand it it contains a spring loaded diaphragm which is intended to soften and remove "pulses"? from the pedal (I know, I don't really "get" it either but quite a few more modern cars seem to use them - my boy's other car, a Kia Rio, has one) I discovered it on the Punto quite early on when I was trying to fix the clutch problem and it took some time to find out what it was and what it does. I wonder if the diaphragm could be damaged in such a way as to cause problems?
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Old 25-08-2020   #15
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Re: Clutch heavy. (almost) everything replaced

Oh stupid me! Your car is a 2010 Panda isn't it? What am I thinking about, Ours is a 2010 1.2 Panda Dynamic Eco! Mrs J is out in it just now shopping with daughter in law somewhere in Midlothian. If she comes home at a reasonable hour I'll try to get a measurement for clutch arm movement off it for you. Maybe tomorrow though as she often goes home with her and has her tea there before driving home (an hour's journey) and it's raining cats and dogs here just now.
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