Technical Clutch heavy. (almost) everything replaced

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Technical Clutch heavy. (almost) everything replaced

Well I popped out after work and finished the job. All good, biting point is much higher now, clutch is smooth and pedal feels normal. So my loose pressure plate bolts were causing the gear engagement problem. I really can't say what caused the heavy clutch, perhaps the mechanical advantage of the hydraulic system and leverage if the fork operating arm are less advantageous when the biting point is very low?

Many thanks for everyone's superb advice
 
A worn out Fiat 1.1/1.2 clutch will go to the floor without releasing the clutch. In many cases the pedal feels really heavy. I have not got my head around how the pedal action does this but I guess the mechanism gets pushed beyond its normal range of motion.
 
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Fiat clutches (Punto and Panda anyway) have the pedal going to the floor without releasing the clutch when worn out. In many cases the pedal feels really heavy. I think this is the mechanism getting pushed beyond its normal range of motion.

I have not got my head around how the pedal action does this but loose bolts perhaps have the same effect.
I've been thinking about that too Dave and the only thing I can think is that with the bolts a little loose the cover won't be so close to the flywheel so the diaphragm will be in a more "relaxed" state and thus more "dished". I know that the more dished a diaphragm is the harder it is to compress - a newly fitted clutch assembly always feels lighter in operation because the diaphragm is compressed almost flat once the cover bolts are fully tightened, which also explains why most clutches feel heavier towards the end of their life.

So I think it's likely the heavy action can be blamed on the diaphragm being dished too much due to the slack cover bolts?

Whatever, I'm so pleased for you onecleanfinger (love that name!) and wish you many happy miles of motoring with your new clutch!
 
My Punto Mk2 HGT had the 1750 engine (basically single plug version of the 1.8 Twin Spark used in Alfa Romeos) The clutch on that was horribly heavy before it was replaced. It functionally just like the 1.2/1.4 but definitely not the same clutch.
 
bit late to the party as already fixed and working fine

however I randomly came across this. Which includes some advice on the clutch save cylinder I didn't know


https://user-khdlkax.cld.bz/BestPracticeGuide-Clutch-2018
A very interesting link - thanks koalar. Despite the checking tools you can buy I, some time ago, decided that I would always replace a DMF if doing a clutch which featured one. Undoubtedly you might get away with the old one but I feel that the failure rate is high enough to be not worth taking the chance.

Of course ECP are in the business of upselling if reasonably possible, but it was nice to see it stated in writing.

I'm quite attracted to the idea of these solid flywheel conversion kits and have spoken to garage workshops who have fitted them. I've always felt quite nervous about the stories of gearbox damage and rough vibrations I've read, but the mechanics I spoke too said this had not been a problem they had had to subsequently deal with and they'd not had one back after fitting. I recently became aware that one of the big manufacturers supplies a "special" driven plate with longer travel springs - so there is more movement available between the hub and driven segments - so maybe there is something in this? I would actively seek out one of these I think if I were considering the change. However I think it's a wee bit of a risky think to do so, personally, on my own vehicle, I'd replace a DMF with a DMF. One of the factors I considered when looking for a new car was that it shouldn't have a DMF!

Here's a quite interesting link about the subject in general: https://www.eeuroparts.com/blog/single-mass-vs-dual-mass-flywheel-why-convert/
 
Using solid flywheels on diesels has been accused of causing premature wear in the gearbox. It makes sense for a thumpy diesel. Not so sure it matters on a petrol model.
 
Using solid flywheels on diesels has been accused of causing premature wear in the gearbox. It makes sense for a thumpy diesel. Not so sure it matters on a petrol model.
In respect of the failures, from what I've read, the two most common complaints is gearbox damage - which I can well believe is what the longer springs, in the driven plate assembly I mentioned above, are intended to mitigate - and snapped crankshafts, which putting springs in the clutch driven plate will have no effect on at all!

I was expecting to find a DMF and/or balance shaft on my 3 cylinder SEAT but no! It has an intentionally out of balance flywheel designed to overcome the inherent imbalance in a 3 cylinder setup. So Yippeee No balance shaft and it's associated drive and a solid flywheel. If only it wasn't turboed and direct injected. (should have bought that Honda!)
 
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The Rotax ETEC 850 direct injected two stroke used in the Skidoo makes 165bhp and uses less fuel than competing 1200cc four-strokes. It's also cleaner on engine start and makes less gunk when the throttle is whacked open as often happens in soft deep snow. It easily meets the US EPA emission regulations which are extremely tight for any engine.

I want one in my Fiat.
 
The Rotax ETEC 850 direct injected two stroke used in the Skidoo makes 165bhp and uses less fuel than competing 1200cc four-strokes. It's also cleaner on engine start and makes less gunk when the throttle is whacked open as often happens in soft deep snow. It easily meets the US EPA emission regulations which are extremely tight for any engine.

I want one in my Fiat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo-r7LwI70Q

Eee by gum lad, that's some engine. With it's variable belt drive - a la DAF? - I guess it's set up to run constant revs most of the time? wonder what it would be like harnessed to a conventional manual gearbox where it's power delivery would need to be much more flexible? I'm sure some clever clogs could sort that out though. Pressure lubed main bearings "pinched" from the world of 2 stroke diesels too? You'd have to knock a fair sized hole in the bulkhead to accommodate the expansion chamber on the exhaust - keep you nice and toasty in winter though wouldn't it?

'twood sound pretty unique too? (I remember what the old 2 stroke SAABs sounded like in the forests back when I was young and would go and see them in the borders forests on the RAC. I think they could rev to around 7,000 rpm?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXVRdSbKDT8
 
Anyone into 2 strokes? If so you might like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbSM-h_nmi8
And whilst we are on the subject of "screamers" you might like this - apologies to those who've seen me post it before:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aq52IUB2h2Q&t=19s
Ok, I know it's a rotary not, strictly speaking a 2 stroke. - Sounds the same though doesn't it? In fact it's a modified Mazda RX3. It's one of my favourite Videos. Considering it's just a wee saloon about the size of a Mk1 Escort it's amazing how it deals with all that American muscle. I love the way it out brakes some of the heavy "muscle cars" into the chicane, does pretty well against even those Porsches too! The only one that really gives it a run for it's money is the red Sunbeam Tiger at about 3 mins in. I've always liked Tigers so that pleases me too!

If you want to hear more amazing sounds find some clips of Johnny Herbert in the Mazda 787B Le Mans car or, one from my era, a Matra MS670:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcPgE40t4dc
No wonder I'm half deaf with tinnitus!
 
A very interesting link - thanks koalar. Despite the checking tools you can buy I, some time ago, decided that I would always replace a DMF if doing a clutch which featured one. Undoubtedly you might get away with the old one but I feel that the failure rate is high enough to be not worth taking the chance.

Of course ECP are in the business of upselling if reasonably possible, but it was nice to see it stated in writing.

I'm quite attracted to the idea of these solid flywheel conversion kits and have spoken to garage workshops who have fitted them. I've always felt quite nervous about the stories of gearbox damage and rough vibrations I've read, but the mechanics I spoke too said this had not been a problem they had had to subsequently deal with and they'd not had one back after fitting. I recently became aware that one of the big manufacturers supplies a "special" driven plate with longer travel springs - so there is more movement available between the hub and driven segments - so maybe there is something in this? I would actively seek out one of these I think if I were considering the change. However I think it's a wee bit of a risky think to do so, personally, on my own vehicle, I'd replace a DMF with a DMF. One of the factors I considered when looking for a new car was that it shouldn't have a DMF!

Here's a quite interesting link about the subject in general: https://www.eeuroparts.com/blog/single-mass-vs-dual-mass-flywheel-why-convert/

page 8

hydraulics


I didn't know pushing the plunger in on a new clutch slave cylinder could cause problems later on


and now the only recommended method to bleed is via the pedal

clean the driving surface of the pressure plate with brake cleaner. Just checked my new clutch and there is a protective waxy covering


there's loads of good tips some we covered some we didnt
 
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Modern 2 strokes like that Rotax have better mid range pulling power than similar power 4 strokes. The Skidoo hides its exhaust chamber well so its probably not "that" big. And the engine is relatively tiny. The new EPA emissions regulations, which were strangling the four stokes, caused Rotax to stay with 2 stokes. They have a faster warm up and better mid range power with less fuel burn than the bigger four strokes.

The direct injection solves the emissions problems as unburnt fuel never gets sucked into the exhaust. It does have a port injector used like an accelerator pump to boost the mixture under hard acceleration. Oil consumption is higher than a 4 stroke but not by much and there is no used oil to dispose safely. It's burnt in the engine or catalyst so no smoke but sadly(?) no stroker smell.

I dont know want became of Envirofit - a US university startup that sold DI conversion kits to TukTuk drivers in Manilla. They replaced the cylinder head and carb with a DI system and throttle body. They cut emissions by 90% and improved fuel consumption by a huge margin so the owners were happy to pay the installation costs. All that on basic two stroke bike engines. These new Rotax ETECs are properly 21st Century stuff.

https://www.effectuation.org/wp-con...trepreneurship_Theory_and_Practice-copy-1.pdf
 
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Modern 2 strokes like that Rotax have better mid range pulling power than similar power 4 strokes. The Skidoo hides its exhaust chamber well so its probably not "that" big. And the engine is relatively tiny. The new EPA emissions regulations, which were strangling the four stokes, caused Rotax to stay with 2 stokes. They have a faster warm up and better mid range power with less fuel burn than the bigger four strokes.

The direct injection solves the emissions problems as unburnt fuel never gets sucked into the exhaust. It does have a port injector used like an accelerator pump to boost the mixture under hard acceleration. Oil consumption is higher than a 4 stroke but not by much and there is no used oil to dispose safely. It's burnt in the engine or catalyst so no smoke but sadly(?) no stroker smell.

I dont know want became of Envirofit - a US university startup that sold DI conversion kits to TukTuk drivers in Manilla. They replaced the cylinder head and carb with a DI system and throttle body. They cut emissions by 90% and improved fuel consumption by a huge margin so the owners were happy to pay the installation costs. All that on basic two stroke bike engines. These new Rotax ETECs are properly 21st Century stuff.

https://www.effectuation.org/wp-con...trepreneurship_Theory_and_Practice-copy-1.pdf
Very interesting Dave. I've always liked 2 strokes but thought they were as good as "dead" due to emissions?

I seem to recollect, when Lada stuck a calalytic converter on their (still carbureted) vehicles - to try to comply with legislation - that they (the Cats) didn't last very long due to contamination. I would have thought that any 2 stroke, which by definition, must burn it's lubricant in greater quantity compared to a 4 stroke, must run into this problem?

Anyway, I'm away to make a cup of (Lidl) Cuppaccino and settle down to read through it. Looking forward to this.
 
Very interesting Dave. I've always liked 2 strokes but thought they were as good as "dead" due to emissions?

I agree, I find this line of development quite appealing.

Two-stroke engines are being considered for Formula 1 in hybrid form as a lower-carbon alternative to fully electric power.

According to Pat Symonds, chief technical officer of Formula 1: “Direct injection, pressure charging, and new ignition systems have all allowed new forms of two-stroke engines to be very efficient and very emission-friendly. I think there’s a good future for them.” (from MotorSport magazine)
 
I agree, I find this line of development quite appealing.

Two-stroke engines are being considered for Formula 1 in hybrid form as a lower-carbon alternative to fully electric power.

According to Pat Symonds, chief technical officer of Formula 1: “Direct injection, pressure charging, and new ignition systems have all allowed new forms of two-stroke engines to be very efficient and very emission-friendly. I think there’s a good future for them.” (from MotorSport magazine)
For some time now I've been loosing interest in F1. Even cancelled my Sky! The cars aren't "Beastie" enough for me. Aero has made it so they either go round the corners like they are on rails or they end up in the scenery? Also I don't like this hybrid stuff, bring back pure IC power and make it hard to control. I'm also bored with just one chap being so dominant.

I've tried watching the electric formula cars but it's just, for me, boring - very boring! So maybe I could kindle up a wee bit of interest in a 2 stroke power plant - even if it was partially harnessed to an electric generator. Maybe it would let another team or two become more competitive.
 
I love 2 strokes coming from a biking background, I had a couple of RD250s back in the 80s. Always hankered after a KH triple, but this was what really floated my boat back in the day but they couldn't get the DI working right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bimota_V_Due
Very nice looker too. Fancy bit of pipe bending on the exhaust, 'twood be interesting to see where it goes under all the fairings.
 
For some time now I've been loosing interest in F1. Even cancelled my Sky! The cars aren't "Beastie" enough for me. Aero has made it so they either go round the corners like they are on rails or they end up in the scenery? Also I don't like this hybrid stuff, bring back pure IC power and make it hard to control. I'm also bored with just one chap being so dominant.

I've tried watching the electric formula cars but it's just, for me, boring - very boring! So maybe I could kindle up a wee bit of interest in a 2 stroke power plant - even if it was partially harnessed to an electric generator. Maybe it would let another team or two become more competitive.

Same here, very dull, MotoGP is interesting this year, 8 different winners in the 11 races so far. Best season in a long, long time. :slayer:
 
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