Technical Head gasket leaking oil

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Technical Head gasket leaking oil

I'm a bit late to this "party" but, for what it's worth, here's my ha'penny worth.

Head gasket? Most unlikely. It's been a few years since I had the head off one but I remember the oil drilling from the pump on the front of the block comes up at the left hand front end of the block (looking at the car from the front) where it then enters the head (sealed by the head gasket) and travels along the front, inside the head to the middle where it comes out of the top. on earlier engines it enters the spray bar for the cam lobes, on later engines it enters drillings in the cam cover where it is distributed to drillings which spray oil on the cam lobes and, on VVT engines, supply the oil to the solenoid which allows activation of VVT. Any oil leak from this system, involving the head gasket, is going to be very localized and probably seen on the front (pulley end) of the engine. To get leaks in the return drillings due to the gasket would mean a gasket so degraded that it would likely have blown through to the water passages long since. On older engines re-tightening head bolts/nuts was an acceptable and not all that unusual thing to do. On the old Austin/Morris stuff I worked on as a lad, with crushable multilayered gaskets, we would actually tell the customer to come back in 1,000 miles and we would slacken and re-torque the nuts and adjust the tappets. The gaskets would crush down so much it would affect valve clearances on these old pushrod type engines. Now-a-days I would be very nervous about doing this especially because most of them will not be torqued but angle tightened and will be "stretch" bolts which should not ever be reused. (I always used new bolts on the FIRE heads I've done.) The risk of snapping bolts and/or stripping threads must be considerable if you "fiddle" with them.

Breather pipe? A prime suspect. I've replaced them on every Panda/Punto there's been in our family. Most often leaks at the cam cover union. Shop4parts do a reasonably priced and good quality replacement.

Cam cover gasket? Very likely and especially if, like you've got, there's "oil everywhere". These gaskets are rubber and harden with age - they are definitely not a "life time fit and forget". I automatically fit a new one when doing a cam belt. Also don't forget to put a "squirt" of silicon sealant in the corners at each end (front and back) where the cam cover arches over the front cam journal and at the rear of the cover where, on older engine, the distributor drive exits the cam cover. If you don't use a sealant here you'll often get leaks. Even Fiat themselves advise to use sealant.

One last wee thought. Where the oil transitions from the head to the cam cover on the later engines, there is a wee "O" seal which is ajoined to the main part of the cam cover gasket by a wee bridging piece. It's possible for this "O" ring to become displaced during fitting and that'll give you a nice leak from the middle of the engine which dribbles down the front and spreads out sideways under the influence of the wind blowing against the front of the engine as you motor along. I put a bit of silicon round it to secure it in place when fitting - BUT, NOT TOO MUCH, or it might squidge out into the oil drilling whilst being tightened down and travel on to block an oil spray jet in the cover (or the VVT mechanism)

However, having said all that, as mentioned above, maybe it's just been sloppiness when topping up and oil has been spilled?

This foggy old brain has given up on me now. Can't think of anything else at this time, I'll come back if I think of anything. My gut feeling would be either the breather pipe or the cam cover gasket.
Regards
Jock.
 
I don't think it is blowing up the dipstick tube, normally that indicates back pressure = piston rings knackered
Most likely a drip/spill from somewhere else.

Agreed but it's an easy test which is often ignored.


Saying that Jock :cool: has probably given all the info anyone could need for this one. (y)
 
I'm a bit late to this "party" but, for what it's worth, here's my ha'penny worth.

Head gasket? Most unlikely. It's been a few years since I had the head off one but I remember the oil drilling from the pump on the front of the block comes up at the left hand front end of the block (looking at the car from the front) where it then enters the head (sealed by the head gasket) and travels along the front, inside the head to the middle where it comes out of the top. on earlier engines it enters the spray bar for the cam lobes, on later engines it enters drillings in the cam cover where it is distributed to drillings which spray oil on the cam lobes and, on VVT engines, supply the oil to the solenoid which allows activation of VVT. Any oil leak from this system, involving the head gasket, is going to be very localized and probably seen on the front (pulley end) of the engine. To get leaks in the return drillings due to the gasket would mean a gasket so degraded that it would likely have blown through to the water passages long since. On older engines re-tightening head bolts/nuts was an acceptable and not all that unusual thing to do. On the old Austin/Morris stuff I worked on as a lad, with crushable multilayered gaskets, we would actually tell the customer to come back in 1,000 miles and we would slacken and re-torque the nuts and adjust the tappets. The gaskets would crush down so much it would affect valve clearances on these old pushrod type engines. Now-a-days I would be very nervous about doing this especially because most of them will not be torqued but angle tightened and will be "stretch" bolts which should not ever be reused. (I always used new bolts on the FIRE heads I've done.) The risk of snapping bolts and/or stripping threads must be considerable if you "fiddle" with them.

Breather pipe? A prime suspect. I've replaced them on every Panda/Punto there's been in our family. Most often leaks at the cam cover union. Shop4parts do a reasonably priced and good quality replacement.

Cam cover gasket? Very likely and especially if, like you've got, there's "oil everywhere". These gaskets are rubber and harden with age - they are definitely not a "life time fit and forget". I automatically fit a new one when doing a cam belt. Also don't forget to put a "squirt" of silicon sealant in the corners at each end (front and back) where the cam cover arches over the front cam journal and at the rear of the cover where, on older engine, the distributor drive exits the cam cover. If you don't use a sealant here you'll often get leaks. Even Fiat themselves advise to use sealant.

One last wee thought. Where the oil transitions from the head to the cam cover on the later engines, there is a wee "O" seal which is ajoined to the main part of the cam cover gasket by a wee bridging piece. It's possible for this "O" ring to become displaced during fitting and that'll give you a nice leak from the middle of the engine which dribbles down the front and spreads out sideways under the influence of the wind blowing against the front of the engine as you motor along. I put a bit of silicon round it to secure it in place when fitting - BUT, NOT TOO MUCH, or it might squidge out into the oil drilling whilst being tightened down and travel on to block an oil spray jet in the cover (or the VVT mechanism)

However, having said all that, as mentioned above, maybe it's just been sloppiness when topping up and oil has been spilled?

This foggy old brain has given up on me now. Can't think of anything else at this time, I'll come back if I think of anything. My gut feeling would be either the breather pipe or the cam cover gasket.
Regards
Jock.

Thank you so much Jock for the thorough explanation and for sharing your knowledge. And you aren't late because I am not planning to change the head gasket until I get a precise and definite cause for the oil leak.

You mentioned the cam cover gasket but it has been changed 3 months ago with Victor Reinz silicone and gasket. It is clearly dry when you see it at the front. Is it possible to leak down even though it looks dry?

"Head gasket? Most unlikely. It's been a few years since I had the head off one but I remember the oil drilling from the pump on the front of the block comes up at the left hand front end of the block (looking at the car from the front) where it then enters the head (sealed by the head gasket) and travels along the front, inside the head to the middle where it comes out of the top"

Please check my picture below. Your explanation matches with my pic. Or maybe not?

I would be happy if breather pipe was the culprit but it is also dry. Now I can also see that coolant and oil are both leaking down. Here is a picture from it. Please do not look at the oil filter. Those water drips are from leaky water pump that was changed a few months back. Just zoom and look carefully and you will see the red coolant. Also whole engine block is covered in oil.
 

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Well, have to say it looks as if it's leaking in the right place to be coming from where the oil gallery transfers from the block to the head. Really, without getting a bit closer to the problem I can't say more than that. Although, I do now seem to remember (it was some years ago now) that when Felicity (our 1992 Panda Parade - 1 litre engine) blew her gasket it developed very slowly over a couple of months. We just noticed she was needing topped up with water about once a fortnight or so and it was slowly getting worse. When I stripped the head off I did notice that oil was leaking in exactly this area. I didn't pay it much attention because the water consumption problem was much more serious. Sorting it all out stopped the oil leak too.

Perhaps if you can find a Fiat specialist and ask very politely, they would offer an opinion for free?

Are you thinking of doing the repair yourself if it turns out to need a head gasket? If so would you be comfortable doing it? I suppose what I really mean is do you have the knowledge/experience to do a good job? These are not especially difficult engines to do a gasket on but bear in mind you will need to remove the timing belt so need to be happy timing it up again on completion (I'd fit at least a new belt and probably just do a full kit). Whenever a gasket is leaking you need to check, or get an engineering co to check, that the head face (and block face) is truly flat, at a minimum you'll need an engineers straight edge and know how to use it. Many people just automatically get the head refaced anyway. The thermostats on these engines are always a bit suspect and I'd be fitting a new one while it's easy to get at and to rule out the thermostat as the culprit in the failure in the first place. Also, because you won't be able to do a meaningful compression test before you strip her down you need to ask yourself "I wonder what the valves are like" If you are going to start stripping out valves and giving them a light grinding in then you're into messing about with valve shims - jolly good fun, if you like that sort of thing (which I do!) Probably most people just take a chance on the valves being OK. Oh, and you'll need rather more than a DIY tool set. However if you can do it yourself then enjoy it. It's a nice wee job.

So if you're feeling "nervous" about all this, finding a wee Fiat specialist and asking his/her advice might be your best course of action. You may find they'll do the job for less than you fear.

Good luck with it all
Jock
 
Well, have to say it looks as if it's leaking in the right place to be coming from where the oil gallery transfers from the block to the head. Really, without getting a bit closer to the problem I can't say more than that. Although, I do now seem to remember (it was some years ago now) that when Felicity (our 1992 Panda Parade - 1 litre engine) blew her gasket it developed very slowly over a couple of months. We just noticed she was needing topped up with water about once a fortnight or so and it was slowly getting worse. When I stripped the head off I did notice that oil was leaking in exactly this area. I didn't pay it much attention because the water consumption problem was much more serious. Sorting it all out stopped the oil leak too.

Perhaps if you can find a Fiat specialist and ask very politely, they would offer an opinion for free?

Are you thinking of doing the repair yourself if it turns out to need a head gasket? If so would you be comfortable doing it? I suppose what I really mean is do you have the knowledge/experience to do a good job? These are not especially difficult engines to do a gasket on but bear in mind you will need to remove the timing belt so need to be happy timing it up again on completion (I'd fit at least a new belt and probably just do a full kit). Whenever a gasket is leaking you need to check, or get an engineering co to check, that the head face (and block face) is truly flat, at a minimum you'll need an engineers straight edge and know how to use it. Many people just automatically get the head refaced anyway. The thermostats on these engines are always a bit suspect and I'd be fitting a new one while it's easy to get at and to rule out the thermostat as the culprit in the failure in the first place. Also, because you won't be able to do a meaningful compression test before you strip her down you need to ask yourself "I wonder what the valves are like" If you are going to start stripping out valves and giving them a light grinding in then you're into messing about with valve shims - jolly good fun, if you like that sort of thing (which I do!) Probably most people just take a chance on the valves being OK. Oh, and you'll need rather more than a DIY tool set. However if you can do it yourself then enjoy it. It's a nice wee job.

So if you're feeling "nervous" about all this, finding a wee Fiat specialist and asking his/her advice might be your best course of action. You may find they'll do the job for less than you fear.

Good luck with it all
Jock

Thanks again Jock.

Actually I went to a FIAT dealer and the owner said:

"head gasket is leaking oil although it is very very rare on these engines. you didn't have luck". Then they gave me an offer of around 120 pounds for:

- head gasket
- valve shims
- head bolts
- resurfacing the head
- work

Please remember that 1 working hour here is around 8 pounds for complicated car repairs like this one. Otherwise it is 3-4 pounds for regular stuff e.g changing oil, shocks, springs, thermostat and so on . That's why it looks cheap. Parts are OEM.

Doing it on my own would be very difficult because I am afraid to mess up something. Better to pay 30-40 pounds for the work and I have a warranty too. When I changed the timing belt + water pump + tensioners + crankshaft and camshaft seals they gave me 5 years / 50 000 miles warranty, whatever comes first.

Culprit for failing the head gasket is really a mistery to me because it never overheated. I replaced the old thermostat with OEM already so it is fine now. The temp gauge was fluctuating when it was failing but never got above the half.

Previous owner might changed the head gasket and haven't done it properly.

I went to 3-4 garages and all of them said it is from the head gasket although I highly doubt in their knowledge and skills.

A former mechanic that sells FIAT parts for all of his life told me it is 2-3 hours work without resurfacing the head. Do you think it is true? Garages say it is 2-4 days of work. Someone lies badly here.

P.S None of the dealers / garages charge for opinion except they put the car on a scan tool. In this case it isn't needed. Why I won't be able to do a meaningful compression test before stripping down the vehicle?
 
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2 -3 hours..yes :)

Have you read all the GUIDES on here?

Around a day without a dry and equipped workshop :eek:

4 days: you are paying for their annual holiday ;)

Could you send me a link / guide / video for changing the head gasket? I searched the forum but actually couldn't find it. Only those for Puntos appear.

Those that say more than 1 day want to rip me off. Luckily, I am not that fool.

As I said above, 95% of mechanics here do not have the required knowledge and they must work slowly and carefully in order to avoid mistakes. As a general rule, they always do something wrong.

Thanks for the heads-up!
 
A former mechanic that sells FIAT parts for all of his life told me it is 2-3 hours work without resurfacing the head. Do you think it is true? Garages say it is 2-4 days of work. Someone lies badly here.
I agree with Charlie. A properly equipped shop with an experienced man working on the job shouldn't take more than half a day.

When I did ours it was because my daughter was coming up to stay for a couple of weeks and I'd promised her the car whilst she was here. All of a sudden, after weeks of just very gently leaking water, the car decided to start leaking much faster and developed a slight misfire! I decided, 2 days before she was due to arrive, that I had to do the gasket because my daughter would just have run the car 'till it blew up! I spent most of one day collecting parts and then removed the air filter, fan belt and drained the radiator before calling it a day. Next morning I got up, had breakfast and was working on the car by about 9.30 hrs. I have a straight edge so was able to check the head myself and luckily it was nice and flat. I had it all cleaned up and ready to reassemble by early afternoon and it was all back together ready to refill with coolant by around 17.00 hrs that same day.

I ran the engine briefly that night but had to go out to the airport to collect my daughter so finished bleeding the system through next day. I also changed the oil as some contamination is likely. Daughter was sleeping off the traveling anyway. By the time she was up, showered, dressed and had her breakfast the car was ready for her.

As my garage is so full of "stuff" I always work in my driveway and I like to take things at a measured pace so as not to make mistakes so I agree again with Charlie when he says you'll do it in a day if not under cover in a workshop. Of course if the head needs to be skimmed you'll be at the mercy of the machine shop.
 
I don't know if you suffer much with rust/corrosion in your country but its always wise to check the steel coolant pipe that runs under the exhaust manifold. In UK they can get very rusty and leak coolant.
 
I agree with Charlie. A properly equipped shop with an experienced man working on the job shouldn't take more than half a day.


As my garage is so full of "stuff" I always work in my driveway and I like to take things at a measured pace so as not to make mistakes so I agree again with Charlie when he says you'll do it in a day if not under cover in a workshop. Of course if the head needs to be skimmed you'll be at the mercy of the machine shop.

I did all of my work 'outside'

1st HG failure was 127-1050 motor

With an empty garage I couldnt work properly.. so got on with it outside

Have done around 15 in a similar way

I helped an elderly neighbour do his Uno
In a 1.5 bay domestic garage.

Took an afternoon in comfort :)
 
I did all of my work 'outside'

1st HG failure was 127-1050 motor

First head I ever took off was on my old 1930 Morris Minor side valve which I bought from Johnny Mid's yard for 10/- to race round the fields in the early '60's. I found an old canvas bag of tools - O/E cast spanners and the like - in the horticultural machinery shed. I got the head off but it didn't do me any good because the problem was a pin hole in one of the bores. Probably why the car was in Johnny's yard in the first place. I put it back together using the old gasket and just drained it of water after each time I used it. Then I got an AJS 350 single pot scrambler which was much more exciting so poor old Esmiralda went back to the yard.

First head I ever took off commercially was on an 850 Mini. It had corroded onto the studs and one of the older men taught me a lot about freeing up seized components on that job. Thought I knew it all from the college sessions, he made me realize I knew next to nothing. I'm grateful to this day to all those older chaps who helped me so much when I was young. It's what's wrong these days. Yes we had to make the tea, sweep the floors, paint the loo walls, and much more but the slow process of being an apprentice fitted you, in a much better way, for a life in the trade. Actually I wouldn't lie to you all, I short circuited some of that by going full time to college but I've been part of the old apprenticeship schemes and seen them working in practice and, when done right, you can't beat it.
 
My apprenticeship was four years including the block release college periods. It gave an instinctive understanding of what is "right".

For getting cylinders off rusted head bolts the best example has to be the (1972 to 1977) Suzuki GT750 two stoke triple. The cylinder block is separate from the crank case and corrosion between the steel studs aluminium can effectively weld them into the block. Removal usually means filling the bolt holes with diesel oil and soaking it for weeks followed by a thick steel jacking plate to gradually draw the block off the studs.
 
I don't know if you suffer much with rust/corrosion in your country but its always wise to check the steel coolant pipe that runs under the exhaust manifold. In UK they can get very rusty and leak coolant.

Luckily I don't suffer with rust here because of the good climate, winters are mild in the past 10 years and they don't throw salt in the winter which is fatal for the rear axle.
 
Hey guys do you have any idea what to put around the oil sump just to avoid seeing those oil drops on the ground? I wouldn't be bothered at all about the head gasket if I don't see the oil on the ground.
 
Hey guys do you have any idea what to put around the oil sump just to avoid seeing those oil drops on the ground? I wouldn't be bothered at all about the head gasket if I don't see the oil on the ground.

Head gasket leaking oil means it has failed. Continuing to use the car will eventually blow the gasket putting coolant down the exhaust. This usually ruins the O2 sensors but can also damage the catalyst. You also risk coolant getting into the oil which will damage the engine.


Bite the bullet and get the job done. The Panda 8V is about as simple as its gets. You will get a new water pump and belts as a side effect so it's not for nothing.
 
Thank you
Please check my picture below. Your explanation matches with my pic. Or maybe not?

I would be happy if breather pipe was the culprit but it is also dry. Now I can also see that coolant and oil are both leaking down. Here is a picture from it. Please do not look at the oil filter. Those water drips are from leaky water pump that was changed a few months back. Just zoom and look carefully and you will see the red coolant. Also whole engine block is covered in oil.

That is only moderate..

My panda had this..

On my 1108cc FIRE it was the camshaft oil seal weeping..
For @60k miles.. kept the sump pan rust free ;)
 
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Head gasket leaking oil means it has failed. Continuing to use the car will eventually blow the gasket putting coolant down the exhaust. This usually ruins the O2 sensors but can also damage the catalyst. You also risk coolant getting into the oil which will damage the engine.


Bite the bullet and get the job done. The Panda 8V is about as simple as its gets. You will get a new water pump and belts as a side effect so it's not for nothing.

Yes I know about consequences. Unfortunately everything is closed because of the virus. I got the last set of water pump and belts done in December. Should I stay with it or to replace it also?
 
I got the last set of water pump and belts done in December. Should I stay with it or to replace it also?
I'd probably fit just a timing new belt. A belt on it's own is pretty cheap so well worth doing just for peace of mind. Give the water pump a spin though just to reassure yourself that the bearings are Ok.
 
Yes I know about consequences. Unfortunately everything is closed because of the virus. I got the last set of water pump and belts done in December. Should I stay with it or to replace it also?

If the belt was reasonably new stock..
Fitted as a kit
And only been in service for 4 months

Very little point in replacing it..
( you have proven it is 'servicable'..
There is a chance what you replace it with is faulty..)

Just spin the bearings on your motor to make sure things are currently good ;)
 
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