portland_bill said:

Quite likely it needs a new clutch. On lots of these small Fiats, the clutch diaphragm spring wears, the fingers wear and the actual diaphragm gets stiff.
This sort of wear happen squite quickly if the driver regularly rests their foot on the clutch at stops, instead of selecting neutral and relaxing, but it still happens, just takes longer, if we are careful with it.

There have been issues with the release fork bearings in the gearbox casing wearing, allowing the fork to twist a little and lose some movement, but not had one reported on here recently, so maybe something for older boxes only.

Click to expand...

From all the observations I've made I'm now convinced the problem lies with the clutch assembly or release mechanism. I do find it quite strange that there is no hint of "strange noises" from within though? - and although the pedal goes almost to the floor before the driven plate is freed the clutch bites ok and doesn't slip under full power - If the diaphragm fingers/release bearing were badly enough worn/damaged to give the symptoms I'm seeing, surely there would be some sort of rubbing/grating/clicking/etc type noise going on? But there's not! Your last suggestion of release lever being either bent or worn interests me as that scenario would seem to fit the symptoms better. What does a worn one look like? any chance you've got an illustration or can post a link to one? Is it the end of the fingers (where they bear on the release bearing) that wear? Can the arms bend? Can the shaft twist? The exterior release arm (the one the slave cylinder rod pushes against) looks as it should. Any help on what to look for would be greatly appreciated.
Yours in frustration.
Jock

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

no hint of "strange noises" from within though?
- If the diaphragm fingers/release bearing were badly enough worn/damaged to give the symptoms I'm seeing, surely there would be some sort of rubbing/grating/clicking/etc type noise going on?

But there's not! Your last suggestion of release lever being either bent or worn interests me as that scenario would seem to fit the symptoms better.

Click to expand...

The finger ends can wear almost to failure without any nasty noises. The bearing, which of course wore with it, continues to bear nicely against the worn surface. They do tend to cause a bit of a noise if a finger breaks though, as the bearing will often then jam.

The release shaft does not bend. It pivots in the gearbox housing in two bushes. These wear allowing the shaft to lean a little according to pressure, which changes the way the bearing contacts the pressure plate fingers. Then it wears more quickly, but often without any tell-tale noises. The bushes are I think replaceable without too much swearing.

Usual problem is just release fingers worn. The diaphragm gets stiffer with wear and debris, the fingers take more pressure, wear increases, reducing movement. The ends of the fingers can start to flex, creating more lost movement.

A new, good brand name clutch, and you'll wonder how you suffered so long with the extra effort.

Yes PB, I think a close look at the release fork, where the release bearing sits on it, is going to be a good place to start. I agree, It seems to fit the symptoms best doesn't it. I had the slave cylinder out when I was doing the selector shaft seal and didn't notice any obvious play in that top bush, who knows about the bottom one? Do the arms of the fork suffer from bending?

I have a memory of one make of car I worked on long ago with this type of release fork set up but the fork was secured to the spindle with a single bolt which screwed through the base of the "Y" profile and into the spindle - the end of the bolt, where it entered the spindle was not threaded (more like a smooth pin) with the threads running up to the head of the bolt which engaged with threads in the "Y" of the fork, so the bolt/pin was taking all the force to actuate the clutch as a shear force through this one bolt/pin. It was common for the end of the bolt to gradually shear which gave a very similar symptom to what we have here with, when the bolt/pin sheared right through, a pedal which went to the floor and no clutch actuation. I think the Fiat fork assembly is welded though from what I can see of it in Mr Haynes publication, and it's not really a "Y" either being two "fingers" which are welded to the spindle, so that scenario doesn't apply.

I'm chomping at the bit to have a go at this myself. Frustratingly I've got the tools and knowledge to do it but have to accept that age and arthritis are acting against me. I had a very successful but big spinal op a few years ago to relieve some of it and another life saving abdominal quite recently so don't want to jeopardize the relatively good health I enjoy at present. I know that Harrison's specify Valeo and I've got faith in that brand. Think I'll just politely mention about the release fork when I'm handing it over at the end of next week but being Fiat specialists I imagine they'll be switched on to the possibility? I'll update here when there's an outcome.

Stay safe everyone
Jock

The release fork is welded to the pivot shaft. There have not been any reports as far as I remember of those bending or breaking, just the bushes wearing.

Unlikely to be clutch fork/lever. Almost certainly just the clutch itself, and Valeo is OE I think, and a good brand. I'd prefer them or LUK over any others.
As a specialist, they'll ccheck the bushes anyway, but unlikely to be the problem.
Stop worrying.

My Punto had a horribly heavy clutch action and was still not releasing properly. When opened up the pressure plate fingers were grooved by the release bearing though there was never any noise from that bearing. It also had a delayed pedal action making the clutch engage with a thump. A new clutch kit solved all that.

The Panda clutch was not especially heavy, so I didn't spot that it was worn. After a while, I noticed the delayed pedal action which was beginning to get heavier. When it was opened up, the pressure plate fingers were grooved.

My wIfe's 1.2 has a heavy clutch pedal. She happy enough but I've put myself on notice to get the clutch done. I have a few back problems but as it will be a driveway job with Jacks I'm not too worried about getting the gearbox off/on the car.

Currently:

2009 Panda 1.3 MultiJet - our little runabout, will go to my daughter when she turns 17

2015 Octavia VRS Estate - my car

2014 VW UP - wife’s car

1979 Escort Ghia - toy

2003 Transit Connect - sons van

Oh deary me. Picked up the Punto this morning. New Valeo clutch kit fitted - Driven plate, cover assembly and release bearing. The lead mechanic himself did the job. The clutch is now beautifully light, just as you would expect with a new complete assembly but, DARN IT, the "action" is still all happening within about an inch of the floor!!! So effectively no change!!! I'm tearing my hair out!

I closely examined the old clutch components. The end of the diaphragm fingers were heavily grooved but still intact. The driven plate is well worn but still had a few thousand miles in it. Release bearing spun quietly. We (the garage mechanics and I) had all expected to be seeing the end of the fingers partially missing or maybe the diaphragm itself split or ??? But nothing! just a well worn clutch which had obviously been driven by someone who "rode it" to some degree but would have lasted for a little longer. I was going to take pictures but it was all so unremarkable I didn't bother. I also asked them to particularly check over the release fork and bushes (and to look for oil leaks on the first motion shaft. Luckily there were none - oil leaks that is - as this would have meant a partial g/box strip down to rectify) The release fork and bushes were in fine order too.

So, we are all absolutely mystified! The master cylinder, of course, was replaced last week but not the slave so a slave is now being procured and will be fitted on Thursday - A job I could easily do myself but, as they fitted the clutch I'm happy for them to "play" with it and, hopefully, get it sorted. To me it feels exactly like air in the system, just as it did when I started down this "road" and ran the best part of a litre of fluid through it bleeding it out. The garage have power bled it and had no better outcome. So it's the last chance saloon now - going to be a little sickening if a slave sorts it?

There is one very nasty little thought flickering around in my mind which I'm trying desperately to ignore. I wonder if a large amount of crankshaft end float could give this effect? There are indications - the worn fingers on the diaphragm fingers - that a previous owner has been a clutch rider. If they were in the habit of cold starting the car with the clutch pedal depressed and then drove around with their foot resting on the pedal the engine could suffer thrust bearing wear. Mind you there would have to be an awful lot of axial movement of the shaft to give a symptom like this so I don't think it's likely - going to check it in the morning with fingers, toes and everything else that can be crossed, crossed! It's going to be the slave isn't it? After all it's the only thing we haven't renewed and Fiat clutch hydraulics have a bit of a name for failing don't they? Go on everyone, reassure me won't you?

It'll be the slave.
Crankshaft end float of enough magnitude woudl surely create noises sometime. Wouldn't it?

The slave really should take up the slack which puts the hydraulics under suspicion.
First stop, new slave to go with the new master cylinder. At £30 for the part, it's odd the garage did not do that as a matter of course.

An old clutch can lead to a driver's left leg like Arnie. Was the clutch release lever checked for straightness?

Was the clutch hydraulic pipe replaced? Could that Arnie left leg have over stressed it? See if it's expanding under pressure anywhere along the length.

DaveMcT said:

The slave really should take up the slack which puts the hydraulics under suspicion.
First stop, new slave to go with the new master cylinder. At £30 for the part, it's odd the garage did not do that as a matter of course.

An old clutch can lead to a driver's left leg like Arnie. Was the clutch release lever checked for straightness?

Was the clutch hydraulic pipe replaced? Could that Arnie left leg have over stressed it? See if it's expanding under pressure anywhere along the length.

Click to expand...

Yes Dave, the slave pushes the release fork and takes the "slack" up - I too thought that might be the problem so was one of the first things I checked.

After the new clutch had been fitted, and the pedal was found to be little improved, the garage thought they had a spare slave left over from a new gearbox they fitted not so long ago - apparently their gearbox supplier includes a slave with every 'box they supply - says something for their faith in Fiat hydraulics? Unfortunately they couldn't find it hence the wait till tomorrow for them to get one.

I asked them to carefully check the release mechanism, fork, spindle, bushes etc for any wear/damage. They told me it all looked just fine.

The possibility of the hydraulic pipe expanding is one I hadn't thought of and it would certainly give exactly the symptoms we're experiencing. I've seen that more than once with brake flex hoses, so why not with a clutch pipe? Must get Mrs Jock back into clutch pedal pumping mode!

Ok Dave, I just couldn't wait to check out the hose scenario. Unfortunately Mrs J is still shuffling around in her dressing gown and slippers so I'll have to wait a wee while for her pedal pumping services but Thought I'd just open the bonnet and have a quick look for anything obvious. The flex hose visually looks good:



We'll see what it does when the pedal is depressed. Mind you clutch hydraulics are not subjected to the sort of pressures you find in brakes, are they? so I'm less convinced this will be the problem - still, got to give it a go just to eliminate it if nothing else.

I have found something I've not noticed before when I've been working on her though. If you trace the clutch pipe from the master cylinder it runs along the bulkhead behind the engine until it gets to this:



Which is mounted just behind and slightly to the left (looking at the engine from the front) of the ABS unit - which is mounted behind the battery on the N/S.



The pipe goes in to the top and exits near the bottom of it, then it goes forward under the battery tray until it connects to one end of the flex hose to the slave cylinder. What on earth is it? I've never seen anything like it in a clutch circuit. I would guess it contains some sort of a damping diaphragm (why is anyone's guess) But it occurs to me this might very well be the problem component if there's something wrong inside it?

Hi Jock.

Another thought
Is your clutch pedal ok? All that hard pumping could have bent it. They are designed to bend in a accident so you never know.

The master and slave cylinders are supplied complete with a length of plastic pipe and a QD connector fully filled with fluid. The connector sits above the driveshaft on the near side wheel arch. They are literally plug and play.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-FIAT-500-PANDA-HYDRAULIC-CLUTCH-MASTER-CYLINDER-55187040/302793262301?epid=1125270542&hash=item467fe284dd:g9wAAOSwVxpbPJmE

You might be able to get one a bit cheaper but £75 to £85 is typical.

The slave also has a length of pipe and a curly bit to deal with vibration between engine and chassis. LuK is an OEM equipment maker.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LuK-CLUTCH-SLAVE-CYLINDER-FIAT-PANDA-1-1-1-2-1-4-03-500-1-2-1-4-07-512004510/323690635262?fits=Car+Make%3AFiat%7CModel%3APanda&epid=1737966033&hash=item4b5d771ffe:g:ltQAAOSwUR9cYaLU

Each end can be disconnected from the supplied pipes and the system bled in the usual way, but why would Fiat see fir to provide new pipes?


Granny and Eggs Mode ON

Fertle out the old master cylinder and its pipe and try to disconnect the QD connector. It's nicely machined from aluminium but the internal springs etc are stainless (we all know what that combination does).

No worries just chop the slave pipe as it's more convenient for catching the old fluid.

Remove the battery to get access, remove the slave,

Remove the old master pipe and run newone through the old (probably broken) clips. Add a few cable ties as the old clips are rubbish.
Fit the master cylinder. Its easy enough as the pedal connection is just a ball joint.
Fit the slave and then snip the piston rod retaining tags.
Plug the QD connectors together. The old support clip is rubbish. I used Zip ties.

Job Done.

I wrapped my QD connector with "Denso Tape" - oily waxy stuff that keeps corrosion at bay. It's not 100% necessary, but it might be me needing to separate it next time.

Granny and Eggs Mode OFF

Like most folks I replaced the slave cylinder only to find the same problem of low pedal. The QD connector was immovable. Being an idiot I cut the pipe and had a look at disconnecting the QD thingy. It was so badly corroded internally that the O ring seal was close to leaking.

I now had a problem as there was no master cylinder available so I had to do a bodge repair. What A CLOT. The line pressure is much higher than we would expect and my bodge only just survived the few days until the new master cylinder arrived.

DaveMcT said:

Hi Jock.

Another thought
Is your clutch pedal ok? All that hard pumping could have bent it. They are designed to bend in a accident so you never know.

The master and slave cylinders are supplied complete with a length of plastic pipe and a QD connector fully filled with fluid. The connector sits above the driveshaft on the near side wheel arch. They are literally plug and play.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-FIAT-500-PANDA-HYDRAULIC-CLUTCH-MASTER-CYLINDER-55187040/302793262301?epid=1125270542&hash=item467fe284dd:g9wAAOSwVxpbPJmE

You might be able to get one a bit cheaper but £75 to £85 is typical.

The slave also has a length of pipe and a curly bit to deal with vibration between engine and chassis. LuK is an OEM equipment maker.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LuK-CLUTCH-SLAVE-CYLINDER-FIAT-PANDA-1-1-1-2-1-4-03-500-1-2-1-4-07-512004510/323690635262?fits=Car+Make%3AFiat%7CModel%3APanda&epid=1737966033&hash=item4b5d771ffe:g:ltQAAOSwUR9cYaLU

Each end can be disconnected from the supplied pipes and the system bled in the usual way, but why would Fiat see fir to provide new pipes?

Click to expand...

Hi Dave. Thanks for all your trouble there. Whilst our "Becky" is indeed a Panda, and so usually the car I'm talking about, This one is my older boy's 2012 Punto 1.4 8 valve. I have learnt a great deal from what you and others write here on the forum so please don't feel that I'm ungrateful in any way will you?

The master cylinder looks like this and doesn't come with any pipework:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FIAT-GRA...432826&hash=item4d9bede5b7:g:ts4AAOSw-oZdez3F

The slave looks like this and also comes without pipework:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fiat-Pun...e:Fiat&hash=item5d79e94476:g:WbYAAOSwWsxbBbUZ

There's a hard nylon? pipe with a quick connector which plugs into the master cylinder and travels behind the engine to that strange round "thingy" on the bulkhead behind the ABS pump. From the bottom of the "thingy" a pipe runs under the battery to a flex hose which looks just like a brake flex hose, the other end of which plugs into the slave cylinder just beside the bleed nipple.

I popped down to the garage and asked about the wierd "thingy" Here's a pic of it:



I was told it's a "valve" and they've done hundreds of Punto clutches and never had to ever replace one so forget about that. They again reassured me that they were sure it was the slave which was at fault and to stop worrying! (looks like they are getting the measure of me!) I managed to get Mrs J to pump the pedal for me when she returned from her swimming session at around 4 pm this afternoon. There was no sign of swelling or anything untoward on the flex hose. I again compared the cylinder stroke with the Panda whilst I had them both sitting side by side and the Punto cylinder does not move it's release arm anything like as far as the Panda - maybe two thirds as much, if that. It just has to be the slave, doesn't it?

But what is that "thingy valve" doing. looks far to big to just be a "valve"? looks much more like some sort of diaphragm? I'm very suspicious of it and still suspect it might be at the root of the problem? Anyone know specifically what's inside it and what it does?

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

But what is that "thingy valve" doing. looks far to big to just be a "valve"? looks much more like some sort of diaphragm? I'm very suspicious of it and still suspect it might be at the root of the problem? Anyone know specifically what's inside it and what it does?

Click to expand...

Ooooh! the mystery deepens! I've just been searching around to try to find out what the "thingy" is/does. I found a second hand one on ebay for a T Jet (I think - it was the only one I could find) looked similar though, It's called an accumulator! Now that's interesting isn't it? My suspicion that this is where the problem lies continues. Probably fitting the new slave, it's ordered anyway and it's about the only part that's not now new, so might as well stick it on anyway and see what happens? I'm not at all confident.

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

Ooooh! the mystery deepens! I've just been searching around to try to find out what the "thingy" is/does. I found a second hand one on ebay for a T Jet (I think - it was the only one I could find) looked similar though, It's called an accumulator! Now that's interesting isn't it? My suspicion that this is where the problem lies continues. Probably fitting the new slave, it's ordered anyway and it's about the only part that's not now new, so might as well stick it on anyway and see what happens? I'm not at all confident.

Click to expand...

Here's the add:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/1137110663...H74cyFx2M2BG8HCE877DJ977Zu59RJiRoCpt4QAvD_BwE
You can see the "thingy" and how it relates to the piping

You can ignore most of my post as I was in Panda mode. D'Oh.

The old powered hydraulic Citroens (BX CX) used a large accumulator to power the brakes if the engine ever stopped running. I can't see why it would help on a clutch but (clearly) what do I know.

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

Here's the add:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/1137110663...H74cyFx2M2BG8HCE877DJ977Zu59RJiRoCpt4QAvD_BwE
You can see the "thingy" and how it relates to the piping

Click to expand...

If you click on "see details and exclusions" in the advert above there's a better illustration of the "thingy" for you to look at.

The lumpy bit in the eBay advert looks tiny for an power boost accumulator. Maybe its to soften sudden pressure shocks on the system.

Instead of paying £40 for an old used line why not talk to HEL for a braided line to replace the whole length? The QD plug might be an issue but they would know if their parts will do the job. I used them for my brake lines. Up to 2m of line with fittings would be less cost and everything would be new.

Give them a call https://auto.helperformance.com/custom-brake-hose.

Also talk to Shop-4-Parts. They know their stuff on Fiats in general.

My Panda was quite a recent addition. It joins a Z4 Coupe 3.0Si.

While the turning circle of the 100HP is worse(!!!) than the Z4, I honestly think I’d struggle to chase myself down a country road. Both are a lot of fun in very different ways.