Technical No hot air from heater / Sloshing noise

[bigshorty]

Hi All

I'm trying to find out why the mother-in-laws 2010 Fiat Panda 1.1 Active Eco is not producing hot air from the heater vents even when the engine temperature is up. On top of that there is a sloshing water sound coming from behind the dashboard, and it's not the usual issue of water being collected in the bulkhead caused by blocked drain plugs. Also, her engine seems to run a lot hotter than normal, hitting at least 3/4's on the temperature gauge. I've noticed there are quite a lot of posts on here relating to no hot air from the vents, but most, if not all I've seen, relate to Pandas with AC / Climate Control, the in laws Panda doesn't have either of these.

We suspected thermostat so we replaced that and also replaced the coolant in her car and ensured the system has been bled, but still no heat is coming from the vents, and the sloshing water noise is always there. I have noticed that the coolant level in the expansion tank can appear low one day, yet another day might be right up the neck of the expansion tank, to me that sounds like pressure is not being kept up with the cooling system. I've checked the oil and underneath the oil filler cap and there doesn't seem to be any signs of oil contamination, so I'm totally stumped.

Any ideas what might be going on, or other things to investigate would be greatly appreciated, the in law is starting to worry about driving the car now, and it would be nice to get her on the road again so she doesn't keep asking for lifts here and there!!!:bang:

 

[varesecrazy]

Hi.

Still sounds like an airlock

On my 1.1..

I overfill the header.. to the bottom of filler neck.. open bleed taps to make sure fluid is in there ok..

Then let motor heat through with rad cap off... will bubble away..and selfbleed.

Charlie

 

[koalar]

are you sure the slash isn't a puddle of water under the windscreen due to blocked drains ??


bubbling water is due to air or gas in the system

 

[koalar]

there's two blead screws.

one on top of the radiator and one on top of the heater hose

 

[koalar]

the fact the bottle jumps to full indicate its not bleed properly.



the fact the bottle sometimes empty would explain why the temperature gauge sometimes reads 3/4 as there's about 2 litres short of coolant

 

[koalar]

needs sorting ASAP 3/4 is way too hot.

start the car from cold.

do the coolant hoses go firm or rock sold ???


when they are firm stop the engine. Undo the bleed screw on the heater hose. You should hear air come out. Tighten the screw. Wait until the engine has cooled. Open the radiator cap to let air into to system from the top again. Top up if needed and tighten the cap again.

repeat until coolant comes out of the bleed screw.


the undo the bleed screw on the top of the radiator and fill up until coolant starts to come out. Replace and you should be good to go.


if it need bleeding again its likely you have a small leek or unlikely the head gasket has gone

 

[koalar]

Hi.

Still sounds like an airlock

On my 1.1..

I overfill the header.. to the bottom of filler neck.. open bleed taps to make sure fluid is in there ok..

Then let motor heat through with rad cap off... will bubble away..and selfbleed.

Charlie

my bleeds like this fine. The others will only bleed if the system is pressurised. Although that car has the larger 1.2 radiator on a 1.1 car and a pattern part heater matrix.

 

[DaveMcT]

The car has been used with the coolant gurgling so there's a strong risk the head gasket has been weakened or even blown. The FIRE engine is tough but in common with all low coolant volume engines it wont tolerate boiling in the cylinder head. If it refuses to bleed, you need to get the engine tested for head gasket failure.

If you do manage to bled it properly, keep a VERY close watch on coolant level. If it's dropping, find and fix the leak. If you can't find a leak get the coolant tested for hydrocarbons, cylinder compressions, etc..

 

[bigshorty]

Many thanks to all for your comments and suggestions.

I can confirm that the problem is not to do with trapped water in the bulkhead trough. A few others have mentioned head gasket could be blowing, this has made me more inclined to believe this as she has recently told me she has topped up the expansion tank on a few occasions.

Our son is a mechanic and said that he will have a look today, he said he was going to see if there are any signs of leaking between the bulkhead and dashboard that might not be easily visible. If not then I will get the in law to get a compression test done. Personally, I still think what the majority of you guys are saying and that is that the cooling system is proving really tough to bleed properly, but I think we'll leave it to the mechanics to try and identify.

Again, many thanks to all who posted here, it is greatly appreciated, and I will update this thread with anything that is discovered.

 

[ian1509]

Good Morning,

Have just seen this, extremely similar to an issue I had. Whilst my heater actually worked, I used to hear a sloshing noise often on start up, that sounded as if was coming from passenger footwell site. Assumed system needed bleeding and tried everything without success. Eventually it transpired their was a small leak from water pump, that I guess let air in. This eventually caused head gasket failure although actual level never dropped that much, well until the end!

Guess it doesn’t take the level to drop that much to cause problems, so good luck.

 

[DaveMcT]

Ethylene glycol coolant (from a blown head gasket) will kill the exhaust oxygen sensors. Make sure these are proven as ok or replaced when the engine is rebuilt.

 

[bigshorty]

Well, found out the issue. Mother in law had a compression test done and it turns out the head gasket if blowing. £350 to get the head skimmed, new gasket fitted and sensors checked.

Could have been worse for her I guess, but at least we know the issue.

Cheers all for your comments and advice, much appreciated.

 

[DaveMcT]

Well done for sussing the problem. You do need to find the culprit.

It could be water pump but you have a new one fitted along with the new cam belt so that's no problem. Other options are radiator leak (corrosion gets them eventually) or the steel coolant pipe that runs behind the exhaust manifold. It's easy to access with the head removed so get that changed anyway.
So get the rad checked and have the pump and steel pipe changed as a matter of course. Apart from the rad tests, there should not be any additional labour costs.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

Other options are the steel coolant pipe that runs behind the exhaust manifold. It's easy to access with the head removed so get that changed anyway.
So get the rad checked and have the pump and steel pipe changed as a matter of course. Apart from the rad tests, there should not be any additional labour costs.

We've had a number of Pandas in the family over the years. Two of my children learned to drive in them and had Pandas as their first cars. That steel pipe Dave mentions is always suspect. It can leak due to corrosion of the metal of the pipe itself or degradation of the rubber sealing ring where it fits into the rear of the water pump. As it's tucked away behind the exhaust manifold/manicat is a little difficult to see. Changing it when the manifold is removed - for instance during a head off job - is really much easier than with head and manifold in place. The first Panda we had (1992 Panda Parade) blew it's head gasket because of this pipe leaking even though I kept it topped up all the time. I now carefully check the pipe on both our present Panda (2010 1.2 Panda Dynamic Eco) and my boy's Punto (2012 1.4 8 valve VVT) every time I service them and we keep on top of it with a weekly fluid level check. Any fall in level, however slight, is immediately investigated.

 

[koalar]

Well, found out the issue. Mother in law had a compression test done and it turns out the head gasket if blowing. £350 to get the head skimmed, new gasket fitted and sensors checked.

Could have been worse for her I guess, but at least we know the issue.

Cheers all for your comments and advice, much appreciated.

needs the head skimmed without inspection ?

 

[DaveMcT]

The head can be checked for warping but it's likely to be out of line and a fine skim costs very little. You will also get the valves lapped into the seats, which is always good.

The coolant pipe seems to be a fiat feature. My Punto HGT (1.8) had the same arrangement. Mine was OK when the cylinder head repair was done but I stripped and painted it anyway and used a new seal at the pump end.

 

[Pugglt Auld Jock]

The head can be checked for warping but it's likely to be out of line and a fine skim costs very little. You will also get the valves lapped into the seats, which is always good.

I absolutely agree Dave. For someone without access to engineering equipment and, perhaps, the experience and knowledge of what to look for, A skim is always a good idea. A light lapping in of the valves (especially if no seat problems are suspected) is also very desirable. I have never had to have a FIRE engine head skimmed but it looks to me that it would mount to a planing table with valves still installed (maybe remove the cam though). So if you are going to lap the valves there's going to be a fair bit more dismantling and then possibly subsequent "fiddling" with tappet shims to restore the correct valve clearances.

As I'm sure you will know, but for the benefit of any who don't, ensuring the face of the head is flat, spotlessly clean and has no pitting is really very important if you don't want to find yourself repeating the exercise and a light skim ensures this. I'm lucky in that I can borrow an engineers straight edge so I can check the face is flat and not twisted. I prefer not to skim if it's not needed as skimming alters parameters which I would prefer to remain "stock". Of course if it's not needed it saves money too!

 

[ian1509]

needs the head skimmed without inspection ?

I recall when mine was done the local garage warned me the head may need skimming but they wouldn’t know until they had taken it apart.

 

[koalar]

I recall when mine was done the local garage warned me the head may need skimming but they wouldn’t know until they had taken it apart.

absolutely correct. There's no way to check with the head bolted down. 10 years ago the trade price was £50 in Manchester and you still have to strip it down get it there and back and reassemble.


If I was testing an overheating car with a suspected head gasket


Start the engine and see if the coolant pipes go firm instantly as per one of the my first posts in this thread. But got no feedback.

then check the oil cap for milky goo.

remove the spark plugs and pressurise the coolant system. Not needed if the system is already pressurised. Remove the injector fuse wait a bit then Crank the engine. Observe if coolant is visible at any spark plug holes.

engine cold remove the radiator cap smell for exhaust then observe if its continuously bubbling


if all that's okay you can buy a sniff test and chemical test if exhaust gasses are present in the coolant. A garage would normally bypass the above and skip to this as they would have the test kit on hand and it quick

If the car had a miss fire a compression test would be a valid test confirm if the head gasket was leaking between cylinders.

oil and water mixing can be tested by visual inspection.