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Old 02-03-2019   #1
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Want more power from 2004 Panda 1.2

Hey, im a new face here and am wondering if you guys could give me a hand.
I have a 2004 Fiat Panda Elegenza 1.2.
stock this has 60Bhp, im looking in increase the output as much as possible as i'm turning this in to a project car. I dont really have a goal for power at the moment as i'm not 100% what is possible in a Panda
I'm a motorsport engineering student, so i figure my own car would be the best way to get some experience.

In an ideal world, i would want to turbo the car, but I have read it may be a better bet to put the (Punto?) 1.4 engine in the car instead.

I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on to what can be done to get the maximum power out of the car?
as it stands the engine needs a rebuild and im on small, but not too small budget.

any help would be much appreciated. Thanks

I'm unable to find what sort of power the gearbox and engine can handle, so im in the dark on what needs to be done the car.

Im comfortable in rebuilding an engine, just wondering would rebuilding and turboing be more beneficial than a complete engine swap?

Or am i looking at this completely the wrong way and maybe theres something else I can do?
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Old 02-03-2019   #2
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Re: Want more power from 2004 Panda 1.2

Tough engines..
But probably better projects out there if the budget is tight.

Charlie
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Old 03-03-2019   #3
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Re: Want more power from 2004 Panda 1.2

why ?

cheaper to buy the bigger engine 100 hp

modifiedmonsters.forumotion.net/t805-the-fiat-f-i-r-e-engine-and-my-experience-with-tuning-it



if you must
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Old 03-03-2019   #4
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Re: Want more power from 2004 Panda 1.2

If you have the money anything can be made to go fast. It's up to you, but more power on the cheap is likely to be a disappointment. Also don't forget the brakes. The 1.2 Panda has adequate brakes for the standard power available.

Watch David Vizard's videos on You Tube. There is a lot about the Austin Mini, but valves and ports all follow the same basic issues. The Fiat FIRE (being newer) will already gas flow a lot better than the old A Series ever did = less work to improve.

Big benefits will come from performance manifolds and larger throttle bodies. You can buy after-market manifolds and TBs even one per inlet port.

Google "fiat performance exhaust manifold" and see what turns up. But to do the job properly you need a 4-2-1 with correct pipe lengths for where then (tuned) engine makes its power. It should peak at the torque point for road use. That's seriously not low cost stuff. You might as well learn to TIG weld and build your own.

Here's one for the 16V 1.4 http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBa...69154000&ver=0

Cheaper stuff exists which are basically cat delete pipes. You will need a sports cat under the floor or be choking the street with fumes and failing the MOT.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/i/382232433364?chn=ps

Who knows if the standard ECU will cope with all that lot. Very unlikely I expect.

To get full effect you will need a specialist ECU (see here http://www.badobsessionmotorsport.co...egory/linkecu/) BUT Fiat link the various ECUs, instruments pod and immobiliser changing any one of them will throw up error messages on one or other of the systems.
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Last edited by DaveMcT; 03-03-2019 at 11:42.
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Old 03-03-2019   #5
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Re: Want more power from 2004 Panda 1.2

Hi BbJak. Hope the studies are going well. Any idea where you might end up? I trained, in the late '60's and early '70's as a mechanic (City and Guilds up to Technicians) Then, and I couldn't believe my luck, landed a job (my first proper salaried position) as a track side engineer with Firestone! I looked after Firestone customers and advised on chassis settings (camber angles, shocker settings, spring stiffness etc) in the European Touring Car Championship and was seconded to help with big sports car races - Le Mans, 24 hours Spa, etc - when extra personnel were needed. For the next few years, until Firestone retrenched the racing division back to Akron, in America, I was in absolute heaven. Wonderful and exciting career but very demanding. Nearly everyone in the department was divorced!

I like "old school stuff" So, for me, if I was going down this road I would be looking for an old Mini, Mk1 or 2 Escort, or similar. There is still a lot of stuff knocking about for them due to the interest in historic events and probably more cheaply "doable" than starting to mess about with turbo's and electronics. If, of course, you can find a sound body shell to work with.

I wish you good luck with the studies and an interesting and profitable career
Regards
Jock
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Old 03-03-2019   #6
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Re: Want more power from 2004 Panda 1.2

Chatting to a guy doing the same kind of course.
Hes an advocate of the MX5.

FAR more STUFF out there used.. and its still a SAFE engine like the pre 2010 FIRE motors.

I can see the appeal of the panda

But in all honesty.. its not going to move far from 'shopping trolley' without MAJOR investment..
and the loss of a ' useable daily driver'

Look at @whitz last Cinquecento
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Old 04-03-2019   #7
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Re: Want more power from 2004 Panda 1.2

Quote Originally Posted by varesecrazy View Post
Chatting to a guy doing the same kind of course.
Hes an advocate of the MX5.

FAR more STUFF out there used.. and its still a SAFE engine like the pre 2010 FIRE motors.

I can see the appeal of the panda

But in all honesty.. its not going to move far from 'shopping trolley' without MAJOR investment..
and the loss of a ' useable daily driver'

Look at @whitz last Cinquecento
A "souped up" Panda would be great but costs would be high. Saying that, a souped up anything is not cheap.

The problem is that everything has gone electronic and the stuff in the car is not adaptable to cope with the fancy manifolds gas flowed widgets and whatever. The aftermarket kit is good and works with the special throttle bodies etc but it wont integrate with all the other electronics on the car (body computer in Fiat lingo).

If you appreciate the issues then why not(?) but it wont be cheap and insurance could be a struggle.
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Old 03-10-2019   #8
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Re: Want more power from 2004 Panda 1.2

hi,guys. a lot of panda owners ( including me) wants more power from our cars for low cost. i would think dropping a 1.4 petrol engine in to a 1108 or 1242 car would be better than spending a shed load of money on tuning parts etc. then you have to uprate the brakes as well. changing the subject a bit, i have looked at various pandas, grande puntos, vans etc, but all diesel, as i have a 2005 panda multijet. power levels differ a lot from my 70 bhp( fixed geometry turbo? ) to 90/105 or more. is it the ecu ?or maybe a larger variable geometry turbo as they all have the 1248 16v jtd engine. regards, steve
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Last edited by steve w hebburn; 03-10-2019 at 17:59.
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Old 03-10-2019   #9
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Re: Want more power from 2004 Panda 1.2

The ratio of fuelled mix in..and burnt mix:fumes out is where your power is.. I suspect the basic engine structure doesnt change much..

I recall my old Jtd's started at 105.. then 110 to 115
Alfa then went @120 to 150.. but Im pretty sure they went for 16v.. rather than 8v.
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Last edited by varesecrazy; 03-10-2019 at 18:07.
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Old 04-10-2019   #10
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Re: Want more power from 2004 Panda 1.2

The issues are electronic. The boxes are locked electronically and work as a set. You cannot mix and match.
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Old 04-10-2019   #11
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Re: Want more power from 2004 Panda 1.2

Quote Originally Posted by varesecrazy View Post
The ratio of fuelled mix in..and burnt mix:fumes out is where your power is.. I suspect the basic engine structure doesnt change much..

I recall my old Jtd's started at 105.. then 110 to 115
Alfa then went @120 to 150.. but I'm pretty sure they went for 16v.. rather than 8v.
The VW TDI and Fiat JTD were originally a common development. The 1.9 went from 90bhp to 130 and right up to 170bhp. They also had a 70bhp in some Skodas.

The 1.3 JTD is a Fiat design but power will have moved over similar range (per cc).
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Old 04-10-2019   #12
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Re: Want more power from 2004 Panda 1.2

Quote Originally Posted by DaveMcT View Post
The VW TDI and Fiat JTD were originally a common development. The 1.9 went from 90bhp to 130 and right up to 170bhp. They also had a 70bhp in some Skodas.

The 1.3 JTD is a Fiat design but power will have moved over similar range (per cc).
The commonraildiesel was developed by FIAT and sold to Bosch. As the name says it uses a common fuelrail under very high pressure (over 1750 bar nowadays) and injectors that open several times per cycle. VW started with injectors with their own pump to build up the high pressure. That's a system they used very long on their 90, 110 and 130 HP engines. Nowadays they use the commonrailtechnology just as every other manufacturer.
TS is comparing NA (natural aspirated) engines with charged (turbo) engines.
By optimizing every component on this NA (1.1 or 1.2) maybe 5 - 10 HP might be found. Turbo (or mechanic compressor) engines can really easily be tuned to 1 1/2 or even 2 times the power it originally had. Off course with more stress to the material.

gr J
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Old 04-10-2019   #13
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Re: Want more power from 2004 Panda 1.2

Its easy to confuse the diesel injection technology with the actual engine design. The TDI and JTD engines were developed jointly between Fiat and VW. After that they each went their own way. VW used the TDI and later PD injection systems, wile Fiat used common rail. Fiat then sold its sold the Common Rail tech to Bosch and now everyone uses it.

The 1.9 TDI 90 could be chipped to 110 and the 110 could go to 130. The 130 could be taken to 170. No doubt the Fiat engines have equivalent margins (per cc). BUT an engine built to make 90/110 will not have the same internals as one able to survive 130/170. It will not simply be a bigger turbo.


David Vizard was able to get 100bhp from the 1275 A Series engine with special cam, gas flowed head a single carburettor. He got a reliable 120bhp with race cams and side-draught Webers but the cranks and rods were precision specials.

The Fiat Fire 1.2 will have a better breathing cylinder head but the cranks and rods will be built to cope with 60 to 80bhp. 100 or even 120bhp will be possible, but not without a lot of special parts. All that will need a special ECU that will not operate with the OEM body computer that runs ABS, airbags, etc.
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Old 07-10-2019   #14
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Re: Want more power from 2004 Panda 1.2

Iím new to the Panda world, so forgive me if Iím wrong, but Iím assuming youíve got the 1242 FIRE in there? Back in the day (ooh, 17 years ago!) I had a Seicento Sporting with the 1108 FIRE in there and I remember it was quite common to drop the 1242 in and fit a turbo kit. So thatís one option if theyíre still available.

If you go 1.4, I believe the Panda 100HP version is a bit more powerful than the Punto unit, but I donít know exactly what they changed. Itís obviously rarer, too though.

If youíre looking to rebuild it as an engineering project, maybe a lightened and balanced screamer on ITBs would be fun to do?
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