Theleman said:

The engine sounded like motor bike.

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Happy to confirm your suspicions after all these years, Theleman! The 2CV motor was indeed based on a pre-war BMW air-cooled flat twin motorcycle engine design. I think I'm right in saying it's the only car apart from the Porsche 911 to have a trebling of its power output during its production. From 12bhp all the way up to 36!

I wish I'd managed to keep hold of one of mine. Two were stolen (which friends and colleagues found hilarious) and two rusted away. Shooting up in value now, like all classics. Maybe the 169 Panda will one day too

Those 2CV cars were for sale for £200 - £500 with full MOT and low mileage and that in the 1990s, but foolishly I was not interested in them. I was more into Renault Laguna and Honda Accord and VW Passat these cars at the time.

I was never into self servicing cars myself in those times either. All I wanted was just get in the car, and drive.

Now I am more into DIY and learning about the cars. But the good old cars are all gone. As you say our Panda 1.1 Eco will become good classic cars one day

The low spec Pandas 169s was not designed with all the clever touches of the 2CV so I'm not so hopeful for them.

One day I suspect, the 100HP will be a classic and good ones are already holding up in value. Longer term, they will have to be in excellent condition. Very few will live that long.

Just as with the Mk1 Panda, the 4x4 models will appreciate. The (rare) unusual ones e.g. Climbing are already holding their value.

Long term electric cars will take over making smoky old petrol less inviting.

Will petrol engine cars then be eventually replaced by electric cars in the future?
I read somewhere soon Diesel engine cars will not be on the road anymore.

Will petrol stations be replaced by car battery charging depots? Next 10-15 years of time life might be quite different from now then

The automotive & oil industries seem quite resistant to change, so I suspect we can enjoy burning fossil fuels for a few years yet... Yep, I'd agree a 100HP in good condition is a certain future classic. The base model Panda is unlikely to have the scarcity value to be worth very much - sadly cars nowadays just don't rust like they used to in the good old days. Touch wood, apart from the rear axle, the Panda also seems relatively free of expensive mechanical components that can fail catastrophically, such as, oh I don't know, maybe for example this:

DaveMcT said:

Here's the BX GTI
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Citroen-BX-Gti-16-Valve/183666658802?hash=item2ac362cdf2:g:hbgAAOSwgadcVfU0:rk:1f:0

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Tempted, DaveMcT? £7k for a BX! Maybe there is hope for the Panda after all That does look like quite a sweet example you've found though! I had a BX "Hurricane" with the same bodykit, a strangely unattractive shade of green, a strangely unreliable diesel engine, naff 90s graphics, and about 30miles of hydraulic pipes apparently made of soft french cheese.

With suspension sinking and steering going heavy I tried to call in at a Citroen garage for (yet) more hydraulic fluid as the last drops drained away, leaving me with no brakes, and I sailed straight on past it! Apart from that a great car! Surprisingly light, it would spin its wheels everywhere. Also ran a CX Safari for a year, the suspension, steering and brakes were superb. Still love the performance & looks of the GT/GTi saloons.

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

points hidden behind the cooling fan on the front of the engine.

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All mine were mid 80's examples, and it seems Citroen had made some developments by then, adding a spin-on oil filter and hiding the points not only behind the fan, but also the oil cooler which involved removing two very fragile aluminium pipes. I had one 2CV fail an MOT on the handbrake which I tried to tighten with the eccentric adjusters on the inboard discs and got into a terrible mess. Held just enough to pass the MOT but I didn't use it again... Well I was young and foolish, and now I don't have the excuse of being young anymore.

Driving the Panda actually reminds me a little of the 2CV in the way it bounces and leans around the countryside (not quite as dramatically), and handles well with limited grip. Whilst it was fun driving a 2CV on country lanes with the right foot flat on the floor, an 8-hour motorway journey to Scotland could become a little tiresome, so the Panda is an improvement in this respect. It's similarly tall and narrow (so you can tell which way the wind blows - always helpful in life) and the gear lever is sort of in the same place. I've even started entertaining thoughts of getting a full-length sunroof fitted to my Panda - now that's one thing I do miss!

rmjbn1 said:

With suspension sinking and steering going heavy I tried to call in at a Citroen garage for (yet) more hydraulic fluid as the last drops drained away, leaving me with no brakes, and I sailed straight on past it! Apart from that a great car! Surprisingly light, it would spin its wheels everywhere.

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The hydraulic pipes were prone to rust but in those days so were ordinary brake pipes. The bodies are not as good as today's cars, but the BX was a whole lot better than the (uber cool) CX and even that was better than the Rover Montego.

Anything still on the road will have new hydraulic pipes. If they dont there will be plenty of other stuff to repair.

PS there was a lovely BX sport for sale recently. Not silly money but it was LHD.

PPS If you cant find a CX GTI Turbo II this is probably even more valuable and def better looking.
https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1081447

rmjbn1 said:

I've even started entertaining thoughts of getting a full-length sunroof fitted to my Panda - now that's one thing I do miss!

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I've had a few cars with sunroofs - our Panda Parade (Felicity), which we had for many years, had twin fabric sunroofs, But on the whole I think I come down against them - Felicity's front one leaked for the last 3 years of her time with us. They are fun on a nice day but an absolute pain in the rear end when they go wrong. Becky, our latest, has a glass roof on which the front half can open. I've read a few posts from people where they've had problems so, as Mrs Jock is not one for the wind in the hair experience, we've just left it closed. Of course, as I'm one of natures great worriers, I now wonder how long it will be before the drain channels block up!

One of the things, being now older and less aggressive, that I really like about driving the Panda is that although it keeps up well with the general traffic flow it lacks the power to make frequent overtaking worthwhile. Consequently I just "go with the flow" which, once you get in the right mindset, is very relaxing.

DaveMcT said:

PPS If you cant find a CX GTI Turbo II this is probably even more valuable and def better looking.
https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1081447

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Well if your thoughts are going down this road the only old larger Citroen which I would take on - because the sheer "cussedness" of working on older Citroens would have to be offset by an unquenchable lust for it - would be the Maserati. Just the look of it sitting at the kerb makes me drool and then that lovely engine noise. Makes it go rather than the disappointing sluggard which the "DS" prove to be behind the wheel. Mind you, at my age I have neither the flexibility of limb or time left to me to even think of tackling such a project!

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

I've had a few cars with sunroofs - our Panda Parade (Felicity), which we had for many years, had twin fabric sunroofs, But on the whole I think I come down against them - Felicity's front one leaked for the last 3 years of her time with us. They are fun on a nice day but an absolute pain in the rear end when they go wrong.

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Aye, I've figured it's probably more hassle (and cost) than it's worth, so it'll remain a pipe dream. At least a 2CV roof couldn't go wrong. Except when a friend decided he didn't like the wind in the hair either and tried to close it at about 50mph. I nearly lost my roof and my humour, he nearly lost his arm!

I'll have to go for a liquid lunch

When i bought it in lastJanuary my main reason i chose a Panda was that it looks different and money wise was the most worth it and with a 5 year full warranty .

Flippin'eck those CX GTI's are still quick cars! Thanks for the links, Dave, but you're a bad man trying to tempt me with those. I think my days of hydro-pneumatic Citroens are behind me. Hope the effects of the liquid lunch have worn off (that second-to-last martini went down well and that you could find your keys).

I agree, Jock, the effort of maintaining a car must be offset against the joy of owning it. For me the balance would always need to be in favour of time spent in the car rather than under it. Unless your hobby happens to involve spending time in dark cramped spaces getting filthy, scraping your knuckles and swearing a lot (if it does, that's fine, I'm not judging you). I'd love an afternoon with an SM (the Citroen variety... oh dear...), but to live with one? No thanks. I guess we had a different mindset with cars built up to the 80's, maybe early 90's, that every now and then something would stop working and need fixing.

Theleman said:

Will petrol engine cars then be eventually replaced by electric cars in the future?
I read somewhere soon Diesel engine cars will not be on the road anymore.
Will petrol stations be replaced by car battery charging depots? Next 10-15 years of time life might be quite different from now then

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Your post got me thinking of this article I read recently, Theleman. You're right, I think the next 10-15 years will be interesting. It's probably about time we implemented a usable alternative to petroleum-based fuels, but it's hard to see which way it will go. Urban areas are likely to place increasing restrictions on diesels, but I suspect it could be a long time before fuel pumps are phased out.

And trying to bring it back on Panda topic... I agree with nobrakes & DaveMcT above, I like the styling of the 169 Panda, inside & out. The design just makes sense. So many new cars are trying too hard with fussy styling that will date quickly.

As well as old Citroens I always had a soft spot for some of the small FIATs, particularly the old 500s ('topolino' & nuova) & 600s, 126 & Strada/Ritmo. And my favourite, the 131 Abarth Rally, especially in the hands of Walter Röhrl & Markku Alén. I read somewhere that Mike Hawthorn's first car was a Topolino, and his antics on the A3 got him noticed before his racing debut. I think the Panda is a worthy successor to these fine cars (pictured here with the world's favourite monosyllabic Finnish speed-merchant):

Ah! The Iceman.

gr J

rmjbn1 said:

As well as old Citroens I always had a soft spot for some of the small FIATs, particularly the old 500s ('topolino' & nuova) & 600s, 126 & Strada/Ritmo. And my favourite, the 131 Abarth Rally, especially in the hands of Walter Röhrl & Markku Alén. I read somewhere that Mike Hawthorn's first car was a Topolino, and his antics on the A3 got him noticed before his racing debut. I think the Panda is a worthy successor to these fine cars (pictured here with the world's favourite monosyllabic Finnish speed-merchant):

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In 1964 my father very kindly went "halfers" with me on a 1275 Cooper "S". Lots of stories about that car including the salesman who wrote it off and killed himself just a week after I'd traded it against a '66 1500 Cortina GT! Anyway, Before I decided on the Cooper one of the cars I drove was a Steyr Puch 650 TR. A very interesting wee car based, as you may know, on the Fiat 500 but with a Steyr flat twin in the tail. Went much better than you would think but in the end it couldn't hold a candle to the Cooper but I'd really love to have one "sleeping" in my garage for the occasional run out on a sunny day!

Walter R. what a man! There are some blood curdling videos of the group B Quatros on you tube and one which covers his Pike's peak assault - The engine noises are superb! Mind you there were a lot of those old rally cars which sounded wonderful. Metro 6R4, Lancia Stratos, BDA MK2 Escort, Oh stop it, I'm drooling!

Don't forget the David Vizard style gas-flowed and tuned 1275. I did a Metro 1275 head to his spec and even with the standard cam that thing revved. Chuck on a pair of 1-1/2" SUs, long centre branch exhaust and a fast road cam and you be going from the standard 60bhp (on a good day) to well north of 100bhp.

I've certainly got the hots for that Citroen CX Turbo GTI and a good Mk 1 is the one to have for rarity value but there's no cash for such niceties. The Turbo II is faster still but the leather effect plakky bumpers and venetion blind grille spoil it's looks. For me it has to be usuable. I dont want to be setting up a roll-over frame for welding chassis underparts. I don't even own a gas MIG welder.

Hi A3jeroen. I know! Kimi's in his Panda and all's well with the world. He even looks like he's enjoying himself
Now that's a race I'd like to have been at. It seems Massa & F-F-F-Fernando were also demonstrating how Pandas like to be driven!

Pugglt Auld Jock said:

I have been keen on drag racing and hot rodding since the '60's and, even now, fantasize about a hot rodded Acadiane - great big rear wheels/tyres, little skinny front ones, Jag independant rear end (chromed of course) a 2.5 litre Daimler V8 in front

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Hi Jock, someone near me had a mean looking Mini van in powder blue with a black roof, straight through exhaust & Wolfrace wheels, I was very envious. I used to toy with the idea of a breathed-on A35 van when they were cheaply available (I wonder what happened to the ex-James Hunt one...), but I've never considered a hot Acadiane before! Have you seen such a thing?

First I've heard of David Vizard, I kept a good article on Daniel Richmond & Downton's work developing what became the Cooper S, when the 'S' really Signified Something Special. A golden age for rallying too, from the Minis through to Group B.

I'm a big fan of Röhrl, a great driver in so many different types of car, and a sportsman of real class. I saw an interview where he said after his second WRC title he picked the rallies he enjoyed to compete in. He didn't want the title again as he didn't like crowds turning up outside his house!

The A Series Guru


He talks a lot about stuff that suits the A Series only, but his basics will also work for a Fiat engine. Check out his talk on valves and seats from 20 minutes.