I will happily buy a 100K Panda. If there is no sign of it being done, cam belt, clutch and a full service with EVERYTHING done will be deducted. I'll also expect it cheap because there will be hidden things to go wrong. There always are.

However, any signs of body damage and I walk. e.g. Lie on your back and look up at the boot floor. Any rust there = rust elsewhere like jacking points and sills. It might not be terminal (yet) but it wont be long.

Back axle will also be an issue but that's not simply a Fiat failing and anyway newer model back axles also fit the 169 Panda (current model Panda, Fiat 500 Ford Ka).

dac69er said:

please explain.......

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I wrote a long-ish reply with replies to your points before I realised it wasn't worth it. You come across as a standard Fiat-hater and you aren't really stating any facts, just a whingey opinion.


All cars age and wear, some less than Fiat but some more so as well. Once they get a few years and miles under their belts it's mostly down to how well they have been driven and maintained.

HP said:

I wrote a long-ish reply with replies to your points before I realised it wasn't worth it. You come across as a standard Fiat-hater and you aren't really stating any facts, just a whingey opinion.


All cars age and wear, some less than Fiat but some more so as well. Once they get a few years and miles under their belts it's mostly down to how well they have been driven and maintained.

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Exactly.

People like to forget that while Fiat and Alfa Romeo were bad for quick rust cars in the 1970s, they were no worse that every other volume car manufacturer of the time.

Fiat with the Uno, made break with the old ways of building cars - way back in the 1980s. Out went inconsistent manual component assembly for tedious jobs. In came robots. The FIRE engine gets its name from robots assembly. But it wasn't just engines; the same approach went into body shells. These could now use zinc plated steel for longer life.

The DNA of the Uno is still visible in the 169 Panda which of course followed from the Mk1 and Mk2 Punto. After the 169 Panda we have the new 500 and the latest larger Panda. The Grande Punto was a major new model by the way.

Any company that follows the same line for so long will have solved most problems. Fiat body shells don't rot and generally the spare parts are low cost.

Fiat also brought us the TDI engine (a joint project with VW) and common rail fuel injection (sold to Bosch).

HP said:

I wrote a long-ish reply with replies to your points before I realised it wasn't worth it. You come across as a standard Fiat-hater and you aren't really stating any facts, just a whingey opinion.


All cars age and wear, some less than Fiat but some more so as well. Once they get a few years and miles under their belts it's mostly down to how well they have been driven and maintained.

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i am far from a fiat hater. i had pictures of alfa GTVs and fiat cinquecento sportings on my wall when i was younger. as i mentioned, my dad had multiple fiat company cars.



i have bought myself a cinquecento which i have used for a few trackdays and am currently rebuilding the engine on and my girlfriend has a panda 100hp.


i am just not narrow minded enough to think they are the greatest cars in all existence. they are not particularly well made in my opinion.


it is well known that most things italian are a bit on the shoddy side.

I guess that's the difference between an opinion and facts.

The slightly bizarre thing is your indignant response. If you went on a forum about babies and said "Babies are rubbish", would you also be surprised if people disagreed with you?

I'm not surprised. Like I said, I'm just being open to the possibility that fiats aren't the best cars in the world.

I was making clear that I do like fiats, but understand their bad points.

Fiats are not "the Best" cars in the world. What does that actually mean?

Kia make very reliable appliances that go, turn and stop but they are utterly boring means of transport. They also see to have very low production costs so can undercut Europeans manufacturers.

Fiat make mostly small cars that sell on tight margins. For what they cost to buy and service I think they are actually very good value. They also have that indefinable extra that you'll never get from a low cost East Asian car.

Better cars are built by the German's but most dont make small cars. Compare VW's UP with Fiat's small stuff and the Fiats suddenly don't look so bad.

Ford Ka is actually a Fiat Panda with a restyled top. Even the dash is remarkably similar.

GM's Adam looks remarkably similar to the Fiat 500. Who knows if they really are related but they look pretty damn close.

The rather excellent Audi A2 can be ignored as it wasn't cheap when new and Audi quickly dropped it - too costly to build.

DaveMcT said:

Fiats are not "the Best" cars in the world. What does that actually mean?

Kia make very reliable appliances that go, turn and stop but they are utterly boring means of transport. They also see to have very low production costs so can undercut Europeans manufacturers.

Fiat make mostly small cars that sell on tight margins. For what they cost to buy and service I think they are actually very good value. They also have that indefinable extra that you'll never get from a low cost East Asian car.

Better cars are built by the German's but most dont make small cars. Compare VW's UP with Fiat's small stuff and the Fiats suddenly don't look so bad.

Ford Ka is actually a Fiat Panda with a restyled top. Even the dash is remarkably similar.

GM's Adam looks remarkably similar to the Fiat 500. Who knows if they really are related but they look pretty damn close.

The rather excellent Audi A2 can be ignored as it wasn't cheap when new and Audi quickly dropped it - too costly to build.

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Like I said, I was just stating that fiats have faults and they don't last as long as other cars due to being built cheaply.
Others on here seemed to give the impression that there are no better cars out there than fiats.

dac69er said:

Others on here seemed to give the impression that there are no better cars out there than fiats.

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Because its a 'FIAT' forum!
Go on any other make of vehicle forum and their manufactured cars are the best in the world.
There are also worse cars out there, I go by the vehicles I see broken down on the side of the road, which are mostly BMW's.
cars are as Reliable as the owner/maintainer one of my other vehicles has a terrible reputation, that's all it is is, badly informed people making opinions without the facts, its 20 years old and still going strong and never let me down including 2 years of commuting between Plymouth and Glasgow. I expect the same of my Panda....

My 2008 BMW R1200 is frankly the best bike Ive owned. But it has some VERY annoying design features that either cost money (to BMW and owners) or are just poor design.

These are not trivial - like weak rear wheel bearing that needs a gearbox rebuild to replace. Clutch that could be a standard car style (low cost) but for some reason was engineered back to front causing engineering issues and costs megabux.

Complex fuel pump management that's totally reliant on a badly designed, unreliable (and costly of course) fuel level sensor.

Nothing is perfect of course, but these are largely faults that never needed to happen and result from special designs for the sake of redesign.

To be honest the Toyota forum I am on are pretty open about other cars being good/better than theirs. The rx8 forum members are quite up tight about their cars though, rx8s are ok, but definitely not great!

You mentioned seeing more bmws on the side of the road than fiats. That is a badly informed opinion not based on any facts. You do have to consider that you probably see 10 times as many bmws than you do fiats on the road. It could also be that the fiats didn't start in the first place?

dac69er said:

. It could also be that the fiats didn't start in the first place?

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Ouch!

dac69er said:

!

You mentioned seeing more bmws on the side of the road than fiats. That is a badly informed opinion not based on any facts. Y

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How is that an opinion it is a FACT in my eyes as that is exactly what I see.

I actually see as many if not more Fiats on the road as BMW's, amazing how you notice them once you own one so you comment is complete rubbish:bang:

Wow should I buy a 100HP with 100K on the clock was the question.

Nobody can answer. Too many variables.

How it driven. How it's been looked after. To if it's spent most of its life on the coast.

Paint work in good condition is a good start though.

09 johno said:

How is that an opinion it is a FACT in my eyes as that is exactly what I see.

I actually see as many if not more Fiats on the road as BMW's, amazing how you notice them once you own one so you comment is complete rubbish:bang:

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Whereas me seeing something is not a valid basis for it to be a fact according to a few of the members on this thread?

Both myself and girlfriend own a fiat btw.

The amount of break downs has to be divided by the number of cars times miles coved or something like that

I have never see a Berwick (automobile) by the side of the road so they must be the most reliable


There my be something about size though. Nearly always saloon size that break down. Possibly due to the owners not willing to get dirty. Or ran out of fuel. Who knows. Who cares.

dac69er said:

....To be honest the Toyota forum I am on are pretty open about other cars being good/better than theirs. The rx8 forum members are quite up tight about their cars though, rx8s are ok, but definitely not great!

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See, more of your posts confusing your own opinions with facts.

I owned an RX-8 for 3 years and 30,000 miles and they definitely aren't ok. They drive nicely (sometimes) but my experience is they're less reliable than Fiats and have rust problems which are frankly embarrassing - an issue shared with similar vintage MX5s and Mazda 6s. At 6 years old mine had rust on the sills, arches and boot lid and needed respraying. The alloys were rotten and needed re-coating (something which Mazda used to do under warranty many times over for owners), parts are expensive and the Mazda dealer service is - in my experience - worse than Fiat.
Lets not get started on engine reliability, either.

Nobody is saying Fiats are perfect, but you're generally just talking sh!te, Mr. Troll.

HP said:

See, more of your posts confusing your own opinions with facts.

I owned an RX-8 for 3 years and 30,000 miles and they definitely aren't ok. They drive nicely (sometimes) but my experience is they're less reliable than Fiats and have rust problems which are frankly embarrassing - an issue shared with similar vintage MX5s and Mazda 6s. At 6 years old mine had rust on the sills, arches and boot lid and needed respraying. The alloys were rotten and needed re-coating (something which Mazda used to do under warranty many times over for owners), parts are expensive and the Mazda dealer service is - in my experience - worse than Fiat.
Lets not get started on engine reliability, either.

Nobody is saying Fiats are perfect, but you're generally just talking sh!te, Mr. Troll.

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i fail to understand why my experiences are not valid, whereas yours are?


i simply said RX8s are ok, i never specified anything. i have had 0 problems with mine. the rust on my 2004 is no worse than the rust on my girlfriends 2008 100hp.
the wheels are a bit flaky, but not that bad.



as for dealer experiences, i had to take mine for a recall and they were absolutely brilliant. restored my faith in car garages.


dont believe everything you read on the internet, they are not always facts. peoples expereriences can be far more worthwhile than some yourtube video based on reddit posts.


i am not trolling, i am just trying to get across an unbiased opinion based on my experiences.

You may have some valid experiences but your approach is rubbing people up the wrong way. Sweeping generalisations like:


"it is well known that most things italian are a bit on the shoddy side."


are hardly likely to gain you friends on an Italian car forum, surely you must understand this.


As we are expected to take on board your opinions, you should also be able to do the same in return.