I have a steering problem with my 2010 1.2 Panda. I have had the tracking checked, the tyres are in good order and at correct pressures. No problem with the power steering.

The problem is that when driving , the steering will not self centre from small deviations from straight ahead, ie if I set the steering slightly off from straight ahead it will stay there. I have to keep making small corrections. Larger turns of the wheel are self centered back OK. It is as if there is some stiffness in the system, perhaps a ball joint. Has any one else experienced this problem?

martinthefirst said:

I have a steering problem with my 2010 1.2 Panda. I have had the tracking checked, the tyres are in good order and at correct pressures. No problem with the power steering.

The problem is that when driving , the steering will not self centre from small deviations from straight ahead, ie if I set the steering slightly off from straight ahead it will stay there. I have to keep making small corrections. Larger turns of the wheel are self centered back OK. It is as if there is some stiffness in the system, perhaps a ball joint. Has any one else experienced this problem?

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Hello Martin. So glad to know I'm not alone! I bought our 2010 Panda Dynamic Eco 1.2 with 62,000 miles on the clock and full service history earlier this year. For a number of reasons we only really started to use her much about 6 weeks, or so, ago. Your description of the steering is pretty much how I would describe ours and I posted about it on the forum a number of weeks ago but got no interest. I have conducted a very thorough examination of the steering and associated components and can find no faults or worn parts. (I'm a retired mechanic but worked mostly on Rover group products in the days they were BMC!) Interestingly I've found that, with the car stationary, even very small movements at the steering wheel rim result in movement at the roadwheel. Which tends to confirm no wear is present. driving around town the effect is not too noticeable. (Mrs Jock doesn't know what I'm moaning about) but out on the open road or on motorway/dual carriageway, as you say, the steering fails to self centre over about the central 5° or so of steering wheel movement. So, as you say, you are continually, and very tiresomely, applying very small correcting movements to the steering wheel. This is not at all like the normal corrective movements I've found necessary on other vehicles. I've only driven a few vehicles that felt like this and most had either partially siezed king pins/ball joints/trunnions or steering racks. There are two I know of where it's a feature of the vehicle. My younger boy's wife runs a 2008 Honda Jazz idsi - the MK 1 version. It's steering behaves exactly the same (and it's electric) only worse in degree of "wander". I spoke to both our Honda independents up here in Edinburgh and got the same answer - it's normal for that model! Apparently it's a big problem on that model with no known effective cure! Although many have replaced the rack at great expense! The other vehicle was one of the old 1200 Lada's. Again a design problem which was never really sorted out as far as I know.

Shortly after buying it I bought Multiecuscan from Gendan (very helpful people) and, after a wee bit of trouble configuring the interface, ran a whole vehicle scan. The only DTC that came up was one for the torque sensor on the steering. I wiped it and it hasn't come back. I do wonder if that may be a bit of a clue? Although other forum posts seem to indicate that DTC's associated with the power steering can be set when the battery or connections are suspect. Carefully checked mine and all seems good although I suspect the battery to be the original.

So. I don't seem to have anything wrong or worn yet this slightly strange effect is still evident and annoying me. - just asked Mrs J and she says she notices nothing and is very happy driving the car! Keeping my eyes open for the chance to drive a similar Panda for comparison.

martinthefirst said:

I have a steering problem with my 2010 1.2 Panda. I have had the tracking checked, the tyres are in good order and at correct pressures. No problem with the power steering.

The problem is that when driving , the steering will not self centre from small deviations from straight ahead, ie if I set the steering slightly off from straight ahead it will stay there. I have to keep making small corrections. Larger turns of the wheel are self centered back OK. It is as if there is some stiffness in the system, perhaps a ball joint. Has any one else experienced this problem?

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Forget to ask, have you owned your Panda for long? Has it always had this problem or has it just suddenly appeared lately? We haven't owned ours long enough to know if it's always been like this.
Regards,
Jock

Thanks Jock for your detailed response. I have owned the car for about 5 years, and although the steering has always felt wooden, this problem was not noticeable until the last 6 months or so. Having said that it is mostly used in town where this effect is not felt.

As you have found no underlying problems, I am leaning towards it being the tyres. Before I left for a motorway journey last Saturday I swapped the wheels front to back as the fronts had more wear. I think I felt a slight improvement. As an experiment I may try over inflating them and see if this makes a difference.

We have 2 panda 4x4's, I like the steering feel on both. The diesel feels a bit heavier and stiff, petrol just about right. Tyre pressures seem to have quite an affect tho', try different pressures, within the safe limits of course. Could get tracking and toe-in checked.

The steering is sensitive to system voltage. Connect a voltmeter and see what it's showing while driving. Low voltage usually trips the power steering but you never know.

Is it better/worse/same on city or normal steering mode?

Thanks, the battery is newish and I fitted the one specced for a diesel, so I'm sure that's not the problem. As I said it feels fine around town with no warning lights. Pressing the city button results in the expected lighter steering, but exactly the same behavior on fast straights and motorways. When I get back from my hols I will experiment with higher tyre pressures and report back. Maybe I am just oversensitive and this is normal

martinthefirst said:

Thanks, the battery is newish and I fitted the one specced for a diesel, so I'm sure that's not the problem. As I said it feels fine around town with no warning lights. Pressing the city button results in the expected lighter steering, but exactly the same behavior on fast straights and motorways. When I get back from my hols I will experiment with higher tyre pressures and report back. Maybe I am just oversensitive and this is normal

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As you say, that petty much rules out a power issue.

I would suspect it's a tracking problem with each side fighting for dominance. You might have a suspension joint issue causing the wheels to run slightly out of line. Maybe the tracking is set toe-out too much.

Possibly top mounts?
I had similar symptoms on my 1.2 Panda until I changed out the top mounts. The old ones seemed visually OK (although with a small amount of rust staining), but the problem disappeared once they were changed.
TBH it wasn't bothering me, but the wife grumbled about it when she borrowed the car, so I thought I should investigate & fix, in case she borrowed it again!

irc said:

Possibly top mounts?
I had similar symptoms on my 1.2 Panda until I changed out the top mounts. The old ones seemed visually OK (although with a small amount of rust staining), but the problem disappeared once they were changed.
TBH it wasn't bothering me, but the wife grumbled about it when she borrowed the car, so I thought I should investigate & fix, in case she borrowed it again!

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When I was looking at the Jazz I wondered about the top mount bearings but both of the specialists said they'd looked into that a number of times and found it not to be a problem so I'd kind of forgotten about it. However a Panda is not a Jazz! Once our summer holiday is over and I've got my older boy's Punto sorted out with a timing belt and service I might give that a try if I can raise the enthusiasm!

Thanks irc.
Jock

cheap import tyres cause these symptoms
they look good then wear on the edges really weirdly
these pandas drive nice but to get the best fit a set of new tyres ,if budget is tight then fit but budget but they only last about 7 thou tops

The tyres are original spec Michelins with plenty of tread, and I had the tracking checked with a 4 wheel laser system a few days ago.

How do the top mounts work, and what wears out?

Thanks for all your replies.

martinthefirst said:

The tyres are original spec Michelins with plenty of tread, and I had the tracking checked with a 4 wheel laser system a few days ago.

How do the top mounts work, and what wears out?

Thanks for all your replies.

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So that's blown my suggestion.

Top mounts are where the front suspension carries the weight into the car body. They contain a bearing that allows the wheels to steer smoothly. It's logical that if they are lumpy and worn, the steering wont move smoothly.

martinthefirst said:

The tyres are original spec Michelins with plenty of tread, and I had the tracking checked with a 4 wheel laser system a few days ago.

How do the top mounts work, and what wears out?

Thanks for all your replies.

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Good morning Martin.

You seem to be very keen to understand all this which is great. I don't now how knowledgeable you are generally about cars and things mechanical, but, if you don't have one already, you would probably find it interesting and informative to buy the Haynes Manual for our Pandas. It would give you illustrations and text which is quite easily understood by most of us.

Regarding these Top Mounts. You'll know, I'm sure, that when you turn the steering wheel it causes the front wheels to steer left or right. (Sorry if that sounds patronising) Let's consider how it does that. The steering rack is basically a bar with teeth cut into it which lies across the car in a metal housing. Meshed with it is a gearwheel - the pinion - which ends up being connected to the steering wheel. When you turn the steering wheel it turns the pinion which in turn forces the rack to move to the left or right - depending on which way you turn the wheel. At each end of the rack are the track rods which have the track rod end ball joints screwed onto them. (It's these which allow for adjustments of wheel alignment toe settings). The track rod ends are fixed to the steering arms which are fixed to the, in this case, MacPherson Strut. (Was he a Scotsman? - must Investigate). This strut contains the shock absorber and road spring and is mounted at the bottom to a ball joint on the suspension arm and at the top to a sound and shock dampening rubber mounting - The Top Mount. Hurrah, we got there! - as you turn the steering, pushing the rack left and/or right, in and out of it's housing it causes the strut to swivel about the ball joint at the bottom and the top end of the damper (shock absorber) rod at the top. The whole weight of the front of the car is taken, through the spring and spring top plate, by the top mount so you need a bearing between the spring top plate and the top mount to allow the strut to swivel freely. This bearing is usually a ball or roller race of some sort. It's this bearing which can sometimes give the sort of feel to the steering which we are experiencing. Normally it allows the strut to swivel with almost no resistance but it lives in a very hostile environment up there under the wing with all the mud, road grit, water, salt, etc, etc being thrown around it so, not surprisingly, they sometimes corrode! This makes them stiff in action and with a tendance to stick or become notchy which gives exactly the sort of problem we've got. Trouble is, as we've all been discussing here, there are other things which can give the same feel. So probably taking it to pieces and having a look is the only way to be sure and that involves the main suspension spring which, if you've not restrained one before, can be "interesting"

Well, Earle S MacPherson was a Yank! Born in Highland Park Illinois. Highland Park? Maybe a connection there? Anyway, according to Wikipedia, he joined Chevrolet in 1935 becoming their chief design engineer. He designed a "Strut type" suspension for the Chevrolet Cadet inspired by, Wait For It, FIAT designs patented by Guido Fornaca in the 1920's! This was not a "true" MacPherson strut as we know it today but he went on to join Ford in 1947 where he designed what we would recognise today as a MacPherson strut for the Ford Vedette. Although most people would recognise the 1950's Consul as being the first mass produced application. All this from Wikipedia.

But who would have guessed the link with Fiat. After a life in, out and around the motor trade, I never knew that!

I am getting lost with all these steering problems.


Are we talking about wander


Having to constantly correct the steering


Or veering constantly pulling to one side


Or is it just that if you put a degree to the right it keeps veering to the right and the same if you put a degree on the left.

Constant corrections a few degrees either side of straight ahead. No pulling or veering, just annoying.

martinthefirst said:

Constant corrections a few degrees either side of straight ahead. No pulling or veering, just annoying.

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First of all its not normal on the Panda

A tendency to wander all over the place, Will almost certainly be due to wear in the steering and or the suspension.

It's unlikely to be a top mount unless the roads are very bumpy


With no ticking noise I would start by inspecting the rubber bushs. There plenty of YouTube videos on doing this.

martinthefirst said:

How do the top mounts work, and what wears out?

Thanks for all your replies.

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Its a roller bearing.. that pivots to let the spring rotate whilst still under tension.

Our panda does this for a while after being parked up.

martinthefirst said:

Constant corrections a few degrees either side of straight ahead. No pulling or veering, just annoying.

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Martin, every time you describe what you're experiencing I just say to myself "yup! That's exactly what mine is like" Not a big effect, Doesn't stop you using the car but, as you say, annoying!

Thanks for your suggestions Koalar. It doesn't feel at all like worn bushings though. It's like a slight stiffness in the rack like when you slightly overtighten the slipper bushing (the thrust pad which is usually opposite the pinion). But with front wheels off the ground this one goes full lock to full lock Quite freely!

I know I'm not imagining this. I'm going to keep at it 'till I find out what it is and when I find it I'll be sure to let you all know. Quite an interesting challenge really. Lucky this is our "spare" car so I can mess about with it as much as I like and Mrs Jock can just go shopping/lunching with her pals in my Ibiza.