Technical Panda 100HP - difficult into first gear occasionally

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Technical Panda 100HP - difficult into first gear occasionally

Dervdrain

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Odd one this - seems to be no pattern to this except it only happens occasionally and typically when coming up to traffic light - stopping with clutch out and neutral - say 30 secs later go for clutch and first and it does not want to go in, so clutch in try again and usually OK second time. sometimes third.

Will say I don't think it's happened when cold.

In other respects clutch seems fine, no slipping, no noise from bearing, seems to bite higher than some (but not too high and still need a couple inches movement IIRC before starting to disengage).

Checked these similar topics but unsure of where to point finger first (hydraulics? Clutch fork? Clutch itself? Box/syncros?):

https://www.fiatforum.com/500/332097-sometimes-wont-go-into-first-gear.html

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/279840-difficulty-engaging-gears.html
 
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Odd one this - seems to be no pattern to this except it only happens occasionally and typically when coming up to traffic light - stopping with clutch out and neutral - say 30 secs later go for clutch and first and it does not want to go in, so clutch in try again and usually OK second time.

Will say I don't think it's happened when cold.

In other respects clutch seems fine, no slipping, no noise from bearing, seems to bite higher than some (but not too high and still need a couple inches movement IIRC before starting to disengage).

Checked these similar topics but unsure of where to point finger first (hydraulics? Clutch fork? Clutch itself? Box/syncros?):

https://www.fiatforum.com/500/332097-sometimes-wont-go-into-first-gear.html

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda/279840-difficulty-engaging-gears.html


May be worn seals in the master or slave cylinder - thus by double-pumping it disengages the clutch better than just a single depress. I dare say if you had it in neutral and depressed the clutch - waited for 20 seconds - if you try to engage a gear it'd be more upset.
 
i would look at the hydraulics first off. the slave cylinders supposedly dont last that long, however my girlfriends is still going after 113,000k miles


get someone to watch the rod as you press the pedal. you may see a leak if your lucky or see it moving inwards a bit when held down.
 
Thanks chaps - a bit more info:

Just done 20 odd miles this morning with lots of deliberate stops to test - absolutely no evidence of clutch slipping and into first no issues - but if stopped - wait - clutch straight in - reverse = cruuunnncchh. Repeat = same, repeat same...

Then pumping pedal say 5 times still crunch - but, hold pedal down 5-10 secs then nice quiet slick change into reverse every time.

not sure if that helps confirm or not and likelihood just master/slave? Or possibility of worse?
 
If it will not go in but there's no rubbing or noises. It "might" be the gear selector cables.

Not easy to check. But its usually easy to select direct with the lever on the gearbox but jams with the lever even with the engine off.

Cleaning with meths normally temperaraly fixes the problem. In the short term.
 
It crunches into reverse as above but if first is tricky it just doesn't want to go in - ie just feels resistance but no noise whatsoever.

Gears selection is fine with engine off - a little clunky/notchy (maybe just wear in linkage/pivots?) but all gears go in fine.
 
reverse will always crunch if you slam it straight in (unless you just catch it right). that sounds pretty normal.


does the car have any oil leaks? has the gearbox oil level been checked or the oil been changed at all?


again, check slave cylinder ontop of the box.
 
Absolutely not slamming it in (I've 30+ years driving behind me :) ) - this is stationary for some time in neutral and then clutch in, gear in gently. It certainly should not crunch when treated sympathetically.

No leaks but I have not been underneath to check slave or g'box level yet.
 
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A slight crunch into reverse is absolutely normal, all 3 of mine have done this - it's not a problem with selectors, cables or hydraulics. Before you go for reverse, with the clutch held down slip it into 4th then reverse. I had to do this even with my brand new one in 2007.


Try the same for the first gear issues. If it struggles to go in ocasionally, keep the clutch down and select second, then first. It could just be occasionally lining up tooth-on-tooth in the gearbox.
 
If the clutch bites near the floor it's almost certainly getting close being worn out. Eventually the plates won't separate and you can't select any gears. It's odd when you are used to clutches getting slack before they start slipping, but these do go the other way.
 
No, bites reasonably *high* ie out from the floor.

Still cannot accept it is normal for a gearbox (if used right) to crunch into reverse or have difficulty going into first - I've driven a lot of vehicles in my lifetime and would never accept this as 'normal' - Fiat or anyone else! ;)
 
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Just select 2nd gear to spin the first motion shaft then snick it down into first and all will be fine. Clutch biting in the upper half of pedal travel is how it should be.
 
So you think the clutch hydraulics are OK and changing slave/master would make no difference?

Forgot to say fluid appears a bit contaminated.
 
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If the pedal action is smooth with no bouncy feeling and it bites well off the floor then then just bleed the clutch and maybe replace the clutch slave cylinder. But dont expect miracles.

If the clutch is dragging and your foot is hard down, its likely to be worn out. Improvements after bleeding the hydraulics will show if it's air in the system.
 
Bleeding the clutch hydraulics won't do any harm and it will get rid of old water contaminated fluid. Even changing the slave cylinder makes sense as water contaminated fluid won't do it any favours. Do the brakes while you are at it.

Parts are not costly.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/11pcs-Wi...201279&hash=item1c8cb51865:g:jGsAAOSwwB1aptAW

But as said, don't expect miracles and as other have said, a crunch into reverse is normal as there is no synchromesh.

If it does happen that a new clutch is needed (unlikely as you say its biting correctly) at least the slave will not need to be replaced.
 
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I suspect the 1st gear synchromesh isn't working properly. Probably caused by a previous owner forcing it into 1st at a too high speed more then once.
However fresh fluid in the system and new oil in the tranny may make a great difference.
Also not putting it in neutral all the time gives you more time to get it in 1st if it's really nescessary without crunching.

gr J
 
I suspect the 1st gear synchromesh isn't working properly. Probably caused by a previous owner forcing it into 1st at a too high speed more then once.
However fresh fluid in the system and new oil in the tranny may make a great difference.
Also not putting it in neutral all the time gives you more time to get it in 1st if it's really nescessary without crunching.

gr J

Could be.
Is it on the original clutch? Maybe it was run for too long with a worn out clutch which led to damaged synchromesh. You can live with it by selecting 2nd to spin the input shaft and then snick it into first. That was always the way with the old BL Mini which was often weak on first gear synchro.
 
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