Hi All, Does anyone know if I can permanently remove the power steering of my 2005 1.1 Panda. I have looked at a few diagrams and it would appear if I remove the worm from the worm and wheel then the power steer would be disconnected and the car could be driven without power steering. Has anyone attempted this, and if so how heavy is the steering (like and old mini?). It must be lighter than turning a dead motor. Regards, Tim.

If its on the MOT schedule for testing then its got to be there. Check MOT garage on that.

Good point regarding the MOT. Has anyone attempted this modification?

Unless you are a bodybuilder, or are going to convert it to LHD, this is a seriously bad idea.
According to ePER, only LHD were available without power steering.

The power steering allows a higher-geared rack. Without the assistance, you'll need muscles like Arnie to steer it, as there's no non-power RHD rack available.

Get yourself on a downhill, somewhere quiet. Turn engine off, but with steering unlocked. Allow car to roll gently down the hill. And I mean GENTLY. Now try to steer it. It'll feel like it is locked, it'll be that heavy. Now you'll know what it'd be like all the time without power.

Be careful running a car without the engine running. You will loose the brake servo assistance after a few presses making it very difficult to stop the car also.

portland_bill said:

Get yourself on a downhill, somewhere quiet. Turn engine off, but with steering unlocked. Allow car to roll gently down the hill. And I mean GENTLY. Now try to steer it. It'll feel like it is locked, it'll be that heavy. Now you'll know what it'd be like all the time without power.

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A seriously bad idea. Don't do this! As said, you will also lose power braking. How would you feel if you damaged your car, or worse - caused injury by trying this stunt?

If you want to feel the difference between having power steering and not, do it the safe way. Park on gravel and try turning your steering from lock to lock while the engine is running. Then turn your engine off and repeat the exercise. That'll give you an approximation of the greater effort involved.

The original question was could the electric assisted column be converted to lighten the effort.

First as already pointed out.

If power steering is optional fitment on the vehicle but has been disconnected in such a way that there is no adverse effect on the steering, that is not a Reason for Rejection. It may be necessary to verify this by road testing.

As its not optional here in the UK it has to be working



Second.

Not tried myself. But having driven old cars with no power steering, there not fun and you need arms like Popeye at slow speeds.

So doubt removing the effect of the magnets in the motor would make much difference

Sweetsixteen said:

A seriously bad idea. Don't do this! As said, you will also lose power braking. How would you feel if you damaged your car, or worse - caused injury by trying this stunt?

If you want to feel the difference between having power steering and not, do it the safe way. Park on gravel and try turning your steering from lock to lock while the engine is running. Then turn your engine off and repeat the exercise. That'll give you an approximation of the greater effort involved.

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There should be 3-5 brake applications available before assistance is lost, so that braking ability is maintained in the event of engine failure. As I said, let the car run GENTLY. Moving only a few feet will be enough to show that steering effort is too great, during which time braking assistance will not yet have been lost. Only one application is necessary, to bring the vehicle to a halt. So safe enough if the instructions are followed, rather than flinging the hands in the air and panicking.

PB - experienced drivers with a good working knowledge of Panda characteristics, like yourself, might feel comfortable testing steering your way, but many reading your suggestion are not so knowledgeable.

It's not worth the risk on a public forum to suggest anything that is not fail safe. Hence my advice to try a different method.

MOT Fail

Power steering malfunctioning or inoperative or evidence that power assistance has been removed or disconnected when it is known that power steering is standard on the vehicle
b. a leak in the system showing that a component, joint or seal has failed

http://www.ukmot.com/manual/2.3/Power-Steering

Sweetsixteen said:

PB - experienced drivers with a good working knowledge of Panda characteristics, like yourself, might feel comfortable testing steering your way, but many reading your suggestion are not so knowledgeable.

It's not worth the risk on a public forum to suggest anything that is not fail safe. Hence my advice to try a different method.

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:yeahthat:

The car will drive perfectly safely without power assistance to the steering and/or brakes, but that does not mean the driver is safe to drive it that way.

IMO all drivers should get some experience of driving the car with the power functions disabled (it could even save your life), but such experience is most appropriately gained on a private test track with a qualified instructor. Sometimes there's a fine line between training for an emergency, and causing an emergency by training.

You can still stop the car in the same stopping distance without servo assistance, but the pedal pressures will be much greater - someone facing this situation for the first time might incorrectly conclude that the brakes had locked solid and failed. Also, the Panda is known to be somewhat weak in the pedal area, and I wouldn't want to unnecessarily stress that mechanism without good reason.

If you choose to disregard all these safety warnings and try driving the car with the engine switched off, be absolutely certain that the steering lock can't engage or you will crash for sure. I know personally one driver who dealt with a throttle stuck wide open by turning off the engine and pulling out the key (basically they panicked); they demolished a garden wall shortly afterwards when the steering locked solid, fortunately without hurting themselves, though the car was a write-off.

The importance of doing basic checks before driving away can't be over emphasised. Thanks to a mistake by the service department, I once drove a car off a forecourt which had no brake fluid in it; I didn't realise until the first time I needed to stop and the pedal hit the floor. Fortunately I was (just) quick enough to catch it on the handbrake, but I've never again driven anything off without first testing the brakes.

Let's not get hung up on the testing. Fairly sure the original poster already knows what it's like when it's not working. That's why they asked the question.


Let move on to a solution.


Best solution would be to fix the original. However more information on its failure is required.

koalar said:

Let move on to a solution.

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Assuming it's the usual torque sensor failure (and not something easily fixed, like a weak battery or a bad earth), then in the UK, this is probably a good place to start. If you've the skills to depower the rack, you''ll have the skills to fit this.

If you just replace the torque sensor, then you'll need to recalibrate the rack ECU afterwards, so a full copy of MES will be needed. If you don't have a copy of MES, then it might be cheaper to buy an exchange column (which shouldn't need recalibration).

If you're anywhere near Bristol, then just take the car there. AIUI, they'll diagnose it for free.

Thanks to All those who replied. I definitely gone off the idea of permanently removing the power steering.

Do you know if I can just pop a complete column from from the scrappy? would I need to get it calibrated. How do I know if the thing was taken off with the wheel straight. Could i fit it but leave the rod between the unit and the rack disconnected and switch the car on and let it find its natural center? I expect I would then need to remove the steering wheel and refit in the correct orientation. then connect the rod below. What do you think is this a good plan?

Regards, Tim.

There is a master spline, so will only fit in one place, so centring not an issue. Straight swap from a scrappy should work, as it is self-contained.

Make sure column is same spec., regarding wheel buttons and stalk controls. Top models have wheel controls, some have phone controls, and have a trip button on the end of the wiper stalk. Not interchangeable as connections are different and body ECU will fight.

Couple of connectors and 5 bolts will take the complete column of the u-joint.
you can then decide to change he sensor (not that hard, but you have to work very precise) or change the column. Important is the colour of the sensorwiring (blue, green or yellow IIRC).
Not sure if a scrapcolumn will work without calibrating.

gr J

Tip Look in my postings for a how-to

Thanks for confirming that a used unit will fit in without reprogramming. And especially your comment about the getting the same spec regarding buttons etc. I didn't realise that would be an issue. A very good point much thanks.

You mentioned 'a good earth' where should I look for this as iI have just purchased a new battery hoping it would cure the steering issue, I didn't think about a potential earth problem.

Regard, Tim.

At the battery you have a negative (earth) cable. It connects to the battery, then to the car body and gearbox casing. They have been known to corrode, at the terminals, and occasionally along their length, inside the sheathing.

So you need to check the connections at gearbox and body, ensure clean and tight, making a good contact. If possible, check with a resistance meter from one end to the other while flexing it a little. Any fluctuations in readings mean a new cable is needed.

And the earthingpoint for steering is behind the glovecompartment on the firewall (on my LHD). Mine was 100% ok and I fitted a new sensor.

gr J

I have the same problem with you ,i buy from scrappy a complete column ,remove the old one with the wheel straight ,install the new column from the crappy(in straight position) and calibrated with the MES (to know the torque sensor the correct orientation.)You must have a laptop with the MES program and the proper cables to connect to obd port and do this job.
PS. I am not a professional mechanic only doing it for hobby.