Got a quick and simple query for you guys, which I'd be grateful if you could answer for me.

Does anyone know long should the Hydraulic Actuator pump should operate for when you open the drivers door?

Cheers in advance!

Simple question, answer less so. It's not so much time as pressure. A few seconds (5 or 6) is normal. (The pump cuts off when upper system pressure limit is reached. It will operate again when minimum system pressure is reached)

More than that could be because the car has been sitting for a few days and there is no residual pressure... or the accumulator is weak, the fluid is low, there is a leak.... etc.

Less could be that there was almost sufficient pressure in the system... or the pump is flaky, the battery is weak.... etc.

Pump should not sound like it is straining or hesitant.

irc said:

Simple question, answer less so. It's not so much time as pressure. A few seconds (5 or 6) is normal. (The pump cuts off when upper system pressure limit is reached. It will operate again when minimum system pressure is reached)

More than that could be because the car has been sitting for a few days and there is no residual pressure... or the accumulator is weak, the fluid is low, there is a leak.... etc.

Less could be that there was almost sufficient pressure in the system... or the pump is flaky, the battery is weak.... etc.

Pump should not sound like it is straining or hesitant.

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Thank you for the response.

The pump on my Panda definitely isn't less than 5 to 6 seconds, I'll time it when I start it up tomorrow, but I would say it is operating in that sort of time frame. The pump doesn't sound hesitant, but it's hard to say if its making a straining sound or not without knowing what that type of noise that sounds like. It's quite a noticeable, loud noise that sounds constant during its duration. I'll have a quick look at fluid levels and for leaks, just in case.

Cheers again, and I'll let you know if I find anything out of the ordinary.

The pump should sound like it is running at a fairly constant speed. If it fluctuates faster and slower then it may need a closer look. Otherwise it is probably fine.

Don't get too hung up on the time it runs. If it runs for 20 seconds then it's probably not well. But even then it may actually be ok, and just that the battery is low, causing the pump to run slower for a longer time.

I've found it's best not to worry about it too much unless there is a real reason. It's a great little system while it is good health, but it is hard to enjoy it if you're expecting it to fail somehow every time you use it.

irc said:

I've found it's best not to worry about it too much unless there is a real reason.

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Would juddering when pulling away from stationary and the car is cold be a valid real reason to worry? The last couple of journeys I've done in my Panda have produced this effect, and it lasts for about 20 - 30 minutes of the journey, then the juddering gradually eases, and then its fine. I've also noticed that most gear changes can be quite jerky, but not sure if this down to my driving style, as I've only ever driven manuals in my life.

The car has a good service history, but from what I've researched the gearbox system and fluids are not usually checked during a service. I'm quite handy with spanners and thought I could do my own DIY service on it, but again research has revealed that its not possible to do a DIY service as it would need to be connected to diagnostic equipment for various reasons. I've also been made aware, but not sure if this is correct, that two types of fluid would be needed to do a DIY service, one for the hydraulic actuator and one for the gearbox itself.

I agree that once the car is running well, it is a great little system, but there is the worry in the back of my mind that something isn't working quite right, but as I said the dualogic gearbox system is all new to me so I don't really know what to think.

bigshorty said:

Would juddering when pulling away from stationary and the car is cold be a valid real reason to worry? The last couple of journeys I've done in my Panda have produced this effect, and it lasts for about 20 - 30 minutes of the journey, then the juddering gradually eases, and then its fine. I've also noticed that most gear changes can be quite jerky, but not sure if this down to my driving style, as I've only ever driven manuals in my life.

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Could well be driving style - when I first started driving a Dualogic I made the mistake of trying to control the gear changes using the throttle. It was constantly juddering, and I assumed it was faulty. Then I realised that the "right" way to drive it was to forget about gear changes and use the throttle to control speed only. Let the Dualogic system worry about everything else. Suddenly no juddering.

bigshorty said:

The car has a good service history, but from what I've researched the gearbox system and fluids are not usually checked during a service. I'm quite handy with spanners and thought I could do my own DIY service on it, but again research has revealed that its not possible to do a DIY service as it would need to be connected to diagnostic equipment for various reasons. I've also been made aware, but not sure if this is correct, that two types of fluid would be needed to do a DIY service, one for the hydraulic actuator and one for the gearbox itself.

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There are 2 fluids involved - Gearbox Oil (same as any other 5-speed Panda, as the gearbox is an ordinary manual gearbox) and Selespeed fluid (a.k.a. Tutela CS Speed) which is used in the hydraulic actuator.
I would avoid doing a DIY or any other service (perhaps other than confirming that the Selespeed fluid is not low) until you have a good idea of how well (or not) the system is working.
Once you have put a few hundred miles on it, you should be able to tell if it has any issues which need dealing with, partly by how it behaves, and partly by getting any fault codes read.
Until then, just use it, get used to the driving method, and give your left foot a rest.

irc said:

Once you have put a few hundred miles on it, you should be able to tell if it has any issues which need dealing with, partly by how it behaves, and partly by getting any fault codes read.
Until then, just use it, get used to the driving method, and give your left foot a rest.

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The left foot thing was the whole reason for getting the Panda. I was recently diagnosed with Fibromyalgia and CFS/ME, and haven't been able to work for a couple of years now. I found driving a manual was hurting my left side, mainly left arm, shoulder and leg (especially knee) from changing gear, so decided to find a cheap automatic motoring alternative, hence the Panda! It does help a lot as now I'm not in agony when I reach my destination, plus its really fun to drive, although I'm not too keen on the manual option, found it quite strange.

As far as fault codes go, there are none present. I got my mate who works in a garage to hook it up to his diagnostic equipment a couple of days ago (as I do with all new cars I get), and it was free of any faults. Unfortunately, he's not clued up with the workings of Pandas, he's only ever worked on a few Fiats in his life, and no Pandas, or else I'd go to him more for advice.

Cheers for your comments IRC, really do appreciate your advice and getting back to me so promptly.

bigshorty said:

I'm quite handy with spanners and thought I could do my own DIY service on it, but again research has revealed that its not possible to do a DIY service as it would need to be connected to diagnostic equipment for various reasons.

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Aftermarket diagnostic equipment is affordable; a licenced copy of multiecuscan (€50) plus a couple of cables and a windows laptop will do just about everything that factory diagnostics will do except for coding keys.

The main reasons you need it for a dualogic are to check and reset any fault codes, and to check the hydraulic fluid level in the selespeed unit (this should be done with the system depressurised).

jrkitching said:

Aftermarket diagnostic equipment is affordable; a licenced copy of multiecuscan (€50) plus a couple of cables and a windows laptop will do just about everything that factory diagnostics will do except for coding keys.

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Thats really useful to know, cheers for that!

I used to use FORScan with my Ford Focus 1.6 TDCI, which was useful in capturing live data, and especially useful in diagnosing problems I was getting with it's DPF filter and Eolys additive. Nice to know there is an option to do roughly the same with Fiats, could prove very helpful.

Right, an update on my original query that I could use some help / advice on.

I've driven my Panda over a couple of hundred miles in the last few days and I'm not sure if the Dualogic gearbox system is working properly or not. I'll explain what I've noticed, and as not having driven a Dualogic before, am hoping someone can enlighten me a bit.

Firstly, the hydraulic actuator pump seems to be running for quite a long time when I open the drivers door, I would say generally between 10 - 15 seconds, and I have noticed that while driving along, the pump can be heard running now and again, but not for long, only a few seconds. I have checked battery and alternator charge / operation, and these are fine.

Next, no matter how I operate the accelerator to drive off from stationary I still get some juddering, with different degrees of severity. After driving for 15 - 20 minutes the juddering stops and my Panda pulls away from stationary nice and smooth.

Also, some gear changes can be very jerky, but not all. For example, I notice it more when the car has to change down gears when going up an incline, also gear changes under hard acceleration can be jerky too.

Finally, while driving with the windows down most, if not all, gear changes produce quite a pronounced metallic click / clunk sound. With the windows up the sound cannot be heard.

The general running of the car is fine, I'm not getting any warning lights so have no idea if what I've noticed is normal or not. My local Fiat dealer has said that they are quite willing to have a technician take it for a drive and see what he thinks, thing is that by the time I get there, the car will run fine. Also, this is not the dealer where I bought the Panda and where the warranty is in place, so if there are any issues with the Dualogic, I really need the dealer I bought the car from to sort any issues out under the warranty, if in fact there are any problems. I still don't know if I'm driving the Panda correctly, so this could still be the cause of many of the things I've noticed.

Any thoughts, views and advice on this would be greatly appreciated.

bigshorty said:

Firstly, the hydraulic actuator pump seems to be running for quite a long time when I open the drivers door, I would say generally between 10 - 15 seconds, and I have noticed that while driving along, the pump can be heard running now and again, but not for long, only a few seconds. I have checked battery and alternator charge / operation, and these are fine.

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My brand new pump normally runs about 8 or 9 seconds, sometimes 11 or 12. I've also got a brand new accumulator, so I would think yours is about right for a system with a few miles and years on it. Mine ran longer before I changed it, but it also chose not to run at all sometimes, hence the change. Intermittent operation when driving is normal.

bigshorty said:

Next, no matter how I operate the accelerator to drive off from stationary I still get some juddering, with different degrees of severity. After driving for 15 - 20 minutes the juddering stops and my Panda pulls away from stationary nice and smooth.

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Doesn't sound right, but could easily be driving style. Try a bit more throttle if possible. Try with Eco mode on and off.

bigshorty said:

Also, some gear changes can be very jerky, but not all. For example, I notice it more when the car has to change down gears when going up an incline, also gear changes under hard acceleration can be jerky too.

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Are you sure you are not trying to influence gearchanges with the throttle?
Downchanges at slow speed can sometimes be a bit jerky when gradually slowing to a stop when not braking at the same time. Try pressing the brake gently and see if it helps.

bigshorty said:

Finally, while driving with the windows down most, if not all, gear changes produce quite a pronounced metallic click / clunk sound. With the windows up the sound cannot be heard.

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That's normal. You can hear the same sound on a manual panda with the window open during rapid gearchanges.
All of the Dualogic changes are rapid, hence the noise.

I think yours is probably working fine.

irc said:

Doesn't sound right, but could easily be driving style. Try a bit more throttle if possible. Try with Eco mode on and off.


I think yours is probably working fine.

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Really appreciate your time with the info you have given me, which for the most part is very reassuring, cheers!

The only suspect issue seems to be the juddering when pulling away from stationary when cold. I will try your suggestions of more throttle when pulling away, and trying the Panda with eco mode on and off when I next use the car. I'll report back my findings when I've done it. I'm tempted to get my Fiat dealer to check the dualogic part of the car over, and provide a quote for any work that needs doing (if it does that is!). I've then got something to throw at the dealer I got the car from, and as long as the work doesn't fall into wear and tear category, he should remedy it under the warranty. Not sure if that would work!

Thanks again, and I'll be in touch again soon.

Sounds like the trouble I had with air in the HP hydraulic cct. Can be cleared by switching on ignition without starting the engine. and move gearstick rapidly from N to D 15 times . ( this imitates the Examiner or Multi ECU| scan which is normally used to purge the residual air from the HP circuit. Don't tell your local garage though, they'd rather charge you £45 to use their Examiner

DavyP said:

Sounds like the trouble I had with air in the HP hydraulic cct. Can be cleared by switching on ignition without starting the engine. and move gearstick rapidly from N to D 15 times . ( this imitates the Examiner or Multi ECU| scan which is normally used to purge the residual air from the HP circuit. Don't tell your local garage though, they'd rather charge you £45 to use their Examiner

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Thanks for sharing that procedure with me Davy, much appreciated!

Just to clarify the procedure, turn ignition on but don't start the car, then move gearstick from N to D 15 times to purge air from the HP circuit. Should the gearstick be in the N position before turning ignition on? Do you turn ignition off when the 15 gear changes have been done, or just wait a bit before starting? How fast do I need to do the gear changes? Will there be any confirmation from the car that the procedure is successful?

Sorry about all the questions, just want to make sure I do it right!

The reason to do this is to keep the HP pump running ,to pump a load of fluid round and hopefully purge it of air . Switch the ignition on , but don't start the engine. I don't think it matters whether the car is in N or D . I suppose you will have to keep the footbrake pressed (sorry, forgot to mention this before ) and then change from Nto D the 15 times. You will hear the pump running ,trying to keep the pessure up.
If you put ' Fiat-Dualogic- M20- Training- Manual ' into Google it will come up with a site in New Zealand ( or it did a couple of years ago when I down loaded it ) where you can download the manual on one of the Dualogic systems [ others are available ] In it it tells you how to do it with 'Examiner' .The method above lets you do it without it.
I've just put that into Google and it came up with the Forum, so it could be available on here, somewhere. If you can't find it , I have it on my lap top so with a bit of luck I might be able to send it on line .

Just a word of caution - I have been told (by someone who is a proper Dualogic expert) that the purging procedure is quite stressful on the pump motor and should not be done regularly or repeated sequentally.

If one attempt does not suceed, don't be tempted to repeat straight away. The motor may overheat and fail if it is already weak.

The reasons I was given are
(a) there is no airflow to cool the pump as the car is stationary, and the procedure operates the pump almost continuously.
(b) in normal operation the system self-purges air, so unless new components have been fitted it is unlikely to improve things.
(c) if air is entering the system it is almost certain that the cause is a fluid leak, which will not be helped by this procedure.

I'm not saying don't do it, but do it with care if you do. And check the fluid level before you start, as if it is low it is more likely to introduce air than remove it.

(I think his comments were aimed at someone who had been attempting to "fix" a Dualogic that was actually fine to start with. It was in bits on his bench with lots of failed seals after getting filled with something other than CS Speed fluid. He may have been a bit cranky at the time)

irc said:

I'm not saying don't do it, but do it with care if you do. And check the fluid level before you start, as if it is low it is more likely to introduce air than remove it.

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Thanks for the word of caution IRC, I think I'll check the levels first before attempting anything.

Just one thing to ask, I know that the CS Speed fluid reservoir is behind the metal tray just below the battery in the engine compartment, is there anything I need to do prior to checking the level? For instance would opening the drivers door that then activates the pump cause an inaccurate level reading in the reservoir? Anything else to be aware of to get an accurate level reading?

If it does turn out that my CS Speed fluid levels are low, and needs topping up, is it just a matter of topping up the levels, or is it a bit more complicated than that?

bigshorty said:

Firstly, the hydraulic actuator pump seems to be running for quite a long time when I open the drivers door, I would say generally between 10 - 15 seconds, and I have noticed that while driving along, the pump can be heard running now and again, but not for long, only a few seconds. I have checked battery and alternator charge / operation, and these are fine.

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Perfectly normal as has previously been mentioned. The system will depressurise when not in use over night etc, and the initial purge will be a complete pressurisation. When the pump then runs during driving its only a pressure top up it applies.

bigshorty said:

Finally, while driving with the windows down most, if not all, gear changes produce quite a pronounced metallic click / clunk sound. With the windows up the sound cannot be heard.

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Again perfectly normal / acceptable

bigshorty said:

If it does turn out that my CS Speed fluid levels are low, and needs topping up, is it just a matter of topping up the levels, or is it a bit more complicated than that?

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Top up from the top, fairly easy, but as mentioned do not fill to full or over fill. Ideally fill after the car has sat over night and the system is not pressurised so that everything thats in the system will already be in the tank and not the pressurised side of things

I had a problem with my Eleganza Duologic about a year ago. The car was hopping around when starting and slowing down. I was very disappointed with its performance.
After trying various methods to try to alleviate the situation, I eventually took it to a local Fiat dealer garage. They tested it on a computer diagnostic system and from what I can gather (I'm no expert) the engine/gear box was out of sync.
They put this right, and from then on the car drives like a dream. The garage charged me just over £60 and it was money really well spent. Maybe this could work for you.
I do hope you can sort this out.

durhamlad said:

I had a problem with my Eleganza Duologic about a year ago. The car was hopping around when starting and slowing down. I was very disappointed with its performance.
After trying various methods to try to alleviate the situation, I eventually took it to a local Fiat dealer garage. They tested it on a computer diagnostic system and from what I can gather (I'm no expert) the engine/gear box was out of sync.
They put this right, and from then on the car drives like a dream. The garage charged me just over £60 and it was money really well spent. Maybe this could work for you.
I do hope you can sort this out.

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I really appreciate your reply, cheers.

I was hoping you could elaborate a bit more on what you meant by your Eleganza hopping when starting and slowing down? Hopefully I can link the problems you had with how my Panda is running at the moment.

For your info, no matter how I drive, whether I'm gentle or firm with the accelerator when starting off from cold, I get some quite bad juddering. Once car is up to speed, some gear changes are good, but others create quite a bad jerk, this is very random. Once car has been driven for 10 - 15 minutes after cold start, there is no more juddering when pulling away from stationary, and jerky gear changes aren't so prominent. Finally, when slowing down on the brakes I get what I can only describe as surges, almost like you hit a few waves head on when on a boat (I can't really describe it any better than that I'm afraid).

Just wondering if this sounds anything like you went through before going to Fiat. I would be very grateful if you could let me know.