Technical Considering motor swap in a 2004 climbing

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Technical Considering motor swap in a 2004 climbing

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Hello, this is my first post, but I have enjoyed reading other peoples experiences on here, and bear with me, English is not my first language;

So I just bought this 2004 4x4 Climbing as my second Panda. the person who sold it to me had done an engine rework... awfull job, taken the head from what i suspect is a 2010 169A4000 motor, used the ignition coil from (I suspect) the 2004 188A4000 block... he had then mounted the thermometre and thermostat from a pre 2010 188A4000, which means the water did not actually circulate around the thermometre.. that caused a headache to figure out why there were no heating in the car, eventually the headgasket got boiled...

So I've added the correct thermostat housing for this head, put in a new gasket after getting all the old gunk out, and I have a new timingbelt, sparkplugs etc lying in a box ready to go in, and will put the rest together tomorrow, and hopefully it will run for a year, maybe more.. but I'm already considering the options of upgrading the motor when I get a bit of time...

Im by law allowed to add up to 20% extra power to my car, IF it then meets spec of another similar model (the 2010 fiat panda 2 with 69bhp the 169A4000 is on paper 15%) hence I'm considering this motor, if I can find one which is somewhat new...

how much of a hazzle is it to mount the new 169A4000 in a car build for the 188A4000? will bolts and nuts fit? what about the transmission, do I need a different pressureplate etc? I suspect electrics are almost OK, since the conversion have been halfway done to her already... I realise some coolant lines will have to be redone for different lengths (I have found the heater-core to thermostathousing is a longer distance than heater-core -> thermometre...) any other things like this I should be considering?

I'm not completely novice at panda-motor-swapping anymore, since my first panda lost oil-pressure (due to too thin oil, combined with a small hole in the sump and very slow driving), and had to have a new motor fitted, and now this headgasket-thing.. but I have not fiddled with any other motors..

Thank you for your time, and I do hope some of you knowledgeable people might have some answers.

Cheers, Tobias
 
how much of a hazzle is it to mount the new 169A4000 in a car build for the 188A4000?

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Personally I wouldn't do this; in the opinion of many, the 188A4000 is a better engine than the 169A4000.

The 69HP unit may be more powerful on paper, but the 60HP 188A4000 produces more power & torque below 3500rpm and is more flexible and comfortable to drive.

Read this post for some real world testing of the two engines.
 
Thank you very much for your reply, that graph took out one of my concerns - whether it was the gearbox that made it feel more responsive... but as convincing that may be, the samplesize is quite low - is this peoples general feeling about those two motors? I have tried 3 of the 188 motors, two in the same car, and the performance is inconsistent to say the least..

But since its very rare for me to go above 3500rpm then a new 188 with few km driven might be better..

I really like the feeling of this Panda Climbing, especially the noise of the driveshaft going to the back :D, but it could do with a little more power :p
 
that is exactly what I would LOVE to do, 100hp <3 but but but, since i would exceed the 20% that i can do without having to pay full tax again (about 120.000 dkkr is my best guess ~12000£...) and then i would have to get it type-approved, meaning i would have to do full crashtests, and pay one of two places about 250.000 dkkr to test emmission and brakes etc etc... tuning is not something that is taken lightly in Denmark :p
 
Why not swap the motor out for another (exactly the same) specification motor?

You have a guaranteed fit then, and your current motor can be used for spares for the parts that are still okay.

And you also have no hassle with the paperwork and tax :)

Plus it's better to drive reportedly!
 
The combined exhaust manifold and catalyst (manicat) restricts a great deal of power and fuel economy. Rather than change out the engine, fit a sports manifold with underfloor catalyst and new exhaust system. Maybe have some work done on the cylinder head ports.

The cylinder head work can give better power and better economy but has to be done just right. If you want to do it yourself best to get another cylinder head to work on. Then you don't risk ruining your car if you cut too much metal away.

In the old days with cast iron cylinder heads we could achieve a great deal by grinding away excess metal from inlet ports, exhaust ports and balancing the combustion chambers. Today the parts are better made so much less work has to be done. On the positive its less work to improve the gas flow. ON the negative its easier to cut away too much metal and spoil the gas flow.

David Vizard is a great resource for this sort of thinking. He has written many books and has a number of lectures on You Tube. He talks mostly about the old Austin Mini and American V8s, but the principles are the same on any engine.
 
Why not swap the motor out for another (exactly the same) specification motor?

The 1.4 engine from the 100HP will bolt up to the 1.2 4x4 transmission (and the rest of the engine bay ancillaries of course) and nobody would ever know. You get 100bhp or thereabouts and have a very stealthy Panda. A friend of mine did just this about 5 years ago and it's still going very well indeed.
 
The 1.4 engine from the 100HP will bolt up...
I really love and hate you for saying this... there's nothing I'd rather do, BUT the legal ramifications if I crashed would be lets say unpleasant, no, I would need to pay the tax and thereby the insurance to go with it to do this... maybe in a few years...
 
The combined exhaust manifold and catalyst (manicat) restricts a great deal of power and fuel economy. Rather than change out the engine.
this might be a workaround.. but as it is now the motor is a frankenstein, the block is from the original 188, the top is from a '10 eco something something (which has a different coolingsystem to the original 188) so the thermostathousing is from the '10 panda 4x4, but since the resistance in that thermometre didnt fit the ECU (it stated -30C in 10+C weather), i had to use one from a punto 188, which had the right thread and the right resistance curve... (which i measured alongside the original thermoprobe from another 188A4000 motor in a pot of slowly heating water on the stove)... and since the exhaust manifold looks rusty and older than any other parts under the bonnet, then that just might be a fun thing to swap as an early summer-project..
 
this might be a workaround.. but as it is now the motor is a frankenstein, the block is from the original 188, the top is from a '10 eco something something (which has a different coolingsystem to the original 188) so the thermostathousing is from the '10 panda 4x4, but since the resistance in that thermometre didnt fit the ECU (it stated -30C in 10+C weather), i had to use one from a punto 188, which had the right thread and the right resistance curve... (which i measured alongside the original thermoprobe from another 188A4000 motor in a pot of slowly heating water on the stove)... and since the exhaust manifold looks rusty and older than any other parts under the bonnet, then that just might be a fun thing to swap as an early summer-project..

Annoying though they may be none of those should affect the exhaust system. Just fitting a free flow manifold and catalyst will make a big difference. The cat will take marginally longer to warm up but if that's such a worry you can wrap the header tubes with insulation.

If you live near Stafford, Xtreme Stainless at Hixon are great for custom exhausts.

Modern cylinder heads are so much better made than in the days of the old BL Mini A Series. Much less metal has to be cleaned away to improve gas flow. today. its more of a cleaning job than a full on porting exercise.

Inlet manifolds can also restrict air flow. Tight bends, some inlets straight and others bent or angled will mess up the air flow. There will be tuning parts for the 1200.
 
If anybody cares about the "ending" of the motor-story, then: I found a motor with 6km on the clock, the 188A4000, looking very neat, and have had it for a couple of short test-drives and it is so much faster than the weird motor I got it with, its "almost" as fast as my 1.2 panda ciao (read; not stupidly slow)..

Cheers, and thank you for all the input.
Tobias
 
Sounds great. Do the head porting work and find a good sports manifold and inlet manifold. If you are concerned about going above the 20% limit just fit a restrictor gasket between the throttle body and manifold when you have it power tested.
 
Sounds great. Do the head porting work and find a good sports manifold and inlet manifold. If you are concerned about going above the 20% limit just fit a restrictor gasket between the throttle body and manifold when you have it power tested.

Ill consider the exhaust when the warmth return, now I feel its the time of year where you'd do only necerssary work, its nicer to have oily hands when its sun and warm... and not a cold back when crawling under it.
 
Ill consider the exhaust when the warmth return, now I feel its the time of year where you'd do only necerssary work, its nicer to have oily hands when its sun and warm... and not a cold back when crawling under it.

A new exhaust manifold is easy to fit when the engine is removed from the car. To the point that its exactly the time to do it.
 
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