Register Login
Save up to 15% with Adrian Flux insurance!
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 14-11-2013   #1
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 5
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Panda Twinair Stop Start issues

Hullo everyone,

I've recently bought a Panda Twinair Lounge, and I think it's a great car. However, the stop/start doesn't work (which I gather is not too unusual).

I took it to the dealer in Edinburgh, and they've told me there's "nothing wrong with", despite it not working for them when they road tested it.

They told me when I booked it in for checking that the system will only work when lots of criteria have been met, such as shutting the door and putting seatbelt on before starting etc, which I have tried to no avail.

I don't drive with aircon or radio on as I'm used to cars with at least six cylinders or several turbos (335i was my last runabout!) and I'm enjoying the challenge of getting the fuel consumption as high as possible.

The garage stated that the battery is probably not charged as there was a count in the engine diagnostics of stop/start failing 4,000+ times.

And the garage has said that I need to get a car battery charger and leave it on for 24 hours.

I did ask what the alternator in a car is for if not to charge the battery, and he said the Twinair is fitted with an intelligent alternator, my grumpy reply of not that bl**dy intelligent if it doesn't charge it with me driving 20 miles a day.


The Poor AA man who was in the car park thought the garage dude was talking pants, and I'm inclined to agree.

I wanted to check with people who know what they're talking about before I call Fiat to complain.


And they said the car had been washed, which it hasn't.

Thanks for taking the time to read my incoherent rumblings, and a big thank you for any help you can give.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Uglyscotsguy is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 14-11-2013   #2
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Preston
Posts: 380
Thanks: 3
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Panda Twinair Stop Start issues

My wife's 500 has the same issue but she is only driving 5 miles a day, so not enough charge is generated. A trickle charger was suggested.
__________________
'07 white 100 HP
'12 red 500 lounge
Dev100 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 14-11-2013   #3
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Devon and Umbria
Posts: 2,136
Thanks: 212
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Panda Twinair Stop Start issues

They're talking b----cks, though you don't say whether you bought the car new or not so the battery could have been down a bit initially, as you noted, the charging system's supposed to deal with that. It's not working properly so the garage must sort it, rather than trying to fob you off with a lot of meaningless nonsense.

(By the way, this thread's in the wrong section.)
Likes Super Uwe liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

babbo_umbro is online now Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 15-11-2013   #4
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Barnet/London
Posts: 625
Trader Rating: 0
Demi has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Panda Twinair Stop Start issues

Wrong panda section I think mate
__________________
My Fiat Panda 100HP - Black Matte Project
Demi is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 15-11-2013   #5
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,316
Thanks: 303
Trader Rating: 0
Goudrons has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Panda Twinair Stop Start issues

Seen this before on another make/model.

The battery/starter motor/alternator/ECU are revised to allow this "Stop/Start" business.

It takes a fair electrical "whack" to start a car, starter motor, firing the ignition, fuel pump, fuel injection etc all take up amps.

(how Honda do this on their EFI off road bikes with no battery is amazing, all for a single kick of the kick starter)

These Stop/Sart systems will protect charging system if it thinks there's not enough juice in the battery, so it will switch off the Stop/Start until it has what it considers enough to restart.

It's common these issues start becoming appearent in the cold weather or if there's a sudden drop in temps.

Batteries don't like the cold and their output can drop considerably because of it (Ipods aren't a big seller with Eskimos because of this!)

Alternators work harder as we use more lights/heated screens/heater blowers etc more of the time.

Also the damp air can cause the alternator belt to slip ever so slightly, reducing it's output.

Short trips tend to weaken batteries as they never fully recharge.

DLR's won't help either.

Add two or more of these together, the stop/start is likely to give up the ghost by it's own accord and keep you running, as the ECU is programmed to not leave you stalled at the lights without enough battery to restart.

Sort of explain why they suggest trickle charging.
Though I would hope they tested the battery condition and alternator output before suggesting it.

If it's under warranty, you could insist on a new battery and see if the issue improves, but it's likely the cold snap and short trips may bring you back to square one again sooner or later.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides


Last edited by Goudrons; 15-11-2013 at 09:33.
Goudrons is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 15-11-2013   #6
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,316
Thanks: 303
Trader Rating: 0
Goudrons has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Panda Twinair Stop Start issues

I guess I should add that manufacturer see this stop/start system as a way to meet European emission regulations cheaply rather than more expensive systems.

It seems the benefits to the owners don't last quite as long as the benefits to the manufacturers and the over effect on emissions might be worse than expected as it burns more fuel trying to replace power in the battery quickly.

Better battery technology (ultracapacitors which manufacturers have already deemed to expensive) and kinectic energy recovery (same again) are needed to make the system work properly.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...-stop-systems/

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...-stop-systems/
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Goudrons is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 15-11-2013   #7
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bit south in Devon like
Posts: 1,926
Thanks: 152
Trader Rating: 0
Super Uwe has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Panda Twinair Stop Start issues

Quote Originally Posted by babbo_umbro View Post
They're talking b----cks, though you don't say whether you bought the car new or not so the battery could have been down a bit initially, as you noted, the charging system's supposed to deal with that. It's not working properly so the garage must sort it, rather than trying to fob you off with a lot of meaningless nonsense.

(By the way, this thread's in the wrong section.)
Quite right - if the car is new, then this should have been covered by the pre-delivery inspection. It's not like dealers aren't aware of the battery issues regarding Stop/Start - well, at least I hope not anyway!

As for telling you to buy a charger - not terrible advice by any means, but where is the customer service here? You've presumably paid a fair load of money for your car and it obviously isn't working properly, so the dealer should really be trying to sort it out.

I would also suggest getting in touch with Fiat Customer Services. I read an excellent post by someone the other day (can't remember where); if you have a problem or just want to pass on your thanks for excellent service received from a dealer, it's all stuff that they want to hear about. I think they would definitely love to hear what you've been told by your dealer...

And yes, this one should be in the Panda 2012 section. Hopefully someone will be able to move it over, then we will be able to help from there!
__________________
Had a 500, then a Panda, then a Punto, wife had another 500...now a Fiesta
Super Uwe is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 15-11-2013   #8
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Near the M4
Posts: 25,254
Thanks: 956
Trader Rating: 0
varesecrazy has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Panda Twinair Stop Start issues

YES - wrong section..,
BUT owning a Punto TA myself I KNOW what a frustratingly "unreliable" thing it can be, charging the battery ONCE may be worthwhile though !,
anyway there are now a hundred Stop/start threads on here , all basically going over the same old stuff time + again,
here is one i've JUST found , that's a little more helpful,,

https://www.fiatforum.com/500/332319...need-help.html

new one on me..!!,
Charlie
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

varesecrazy is online now Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 16-11-2013   #9
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 5
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Panda Twinair Stop Start issues

Hullo again,

Sorry for the wrong section. Just can't get the newbies these days...

When I booked the car into fiat, they told me how it should work, and I tried that, and it didn't. It didn't even work when they road tested it. Yet they still send it away broken back to the customer telling them to fix it themselves. (plus the Bluetooth connection is dropping calls, they didn't fix that, they just gave me a printout with blueandme.net written on it and told me to check for a software update). They were however very happy to take £240 for a new key.

I called Fiat customer services yesterday, they were great. They're going to contact the dealership, get their side of the story, and then speak to their technical people to see if that seems legitimate, which I and others on here seem to doubt.

It was registered march 2012, I bought it in august this year. It was a demonstrator vehicle.


Will let you know what Fiat themselves say, but I probably won't be taking my car back to Arnold Clark Fiat in Sighthill. They proudly boast about washing and vacuuming every car, yet didn't!

Service people are useless. Parts guy (Keith I think) was excellent. Coffee is nice though.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Uglyscotsguy is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 16-11-2013   #10
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 5
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Panda Twinair Stop Start issues

I've tried everything there, I don't usually drive with the radio on, or rear demister or anything really.

I think it is just a faulty battery or alternator or goblin or whatever witchcraft powers it.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Uglyscotsguy is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 16-11-2013   #11
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Near the M4
Posts: 25,254
Thanks: 956
Trader Rating: 0
varesecrazy has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Panda Twinair Stop Start issues

Quote Originally Posted by Uglyscotsguy View Post
I've tried everything there, I don't usually drive with the radio on, or rear demister or anything really.

I think it is just a faulty battery or alternator or goblin or whatever witchcraft powers it.
was it a UK stock car.. or did you order from the Factory..,
UK stock ones can have US batteries from being parked-up so long,

mine was stock and "has it's moments..!!"
Charlie
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

varesecrazy is online now Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 22-11-2013   #12
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 5
Thanks: 0
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Panda Twinair Stop Start issues

I contacted Fiat last week to see if they can check if Arnold Clark's claims that charging the battery is sufficient to fix this issue.

They got back to me Wednesday (4th working day later) to say they've contacted the dealer who have told them what they told me.

Fiat did not contact any of their own technical people, or anybody else.

They have taken the Arnold clark dealerships technical opinion. As anyone with any experience of Arnold Clark will confirm, their technicians are usually tyre fitters, with sometimes printed instructions to follow. They generally don't have a clue what they're talking about.


The thing that I have trouble grasping the concept of...

If the battery is not charged enough to restart the car, then the alternator or battery must be faulty as I drive 20 miles a day, half at motorway speeds, and the rest on uncontested city roads (start work at either 4am or noon, so out with rush hour). Don't have the radio on as it's garbage at that time if the day. No air con needed, blah blah. The stop/start should work.


If I go and buy a trickle charger, what's to say that in a week or month or whatever I'll need to charge it again.

The stop/start didn't work after a 380 mile drive back from the dealership at a steady constant 70 (give or take 20).


If the alternator can't get the battery fully charged after all that then there is something wrong.


And it turns out Fiat customer service is just a message relaying service.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Uglyscotsguy is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 22-11-2013   #13
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Near the M4
Posts: 25,254
Thanks: 956
Trader Rating: 0
varesecrazy has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Panda Twinair Stop Start issues

back to previous question,
did you order the car ? - or was it in group stock..??,

the group stock cars will all have poor batteries,
LIKE MINE
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

varesecrazy is online now Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 22-11-2013   #14
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Dorset
Posts: 8,914
Thanks: 947
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Panda Twinair Stop Start issues

Quote Originally Posted by Uglyscotsguy View Post
If the alternator can't get the battery fully charged after all that then there is something wrong.
I think it's highly unlikely there is anything wrong with the alternator. The car's on-board charging system is not designed to recover a deeply discharged battery.

Quote Originally Posted by Uglyscotsguy View Post
If I go and buy a trickle charger, what's to say that in a week or month or whatever I'll need to charge it again.
A trickle charger will not help you.

Only an intelligent pulse charger can do what is required; some, but not all, deeply discharged batteries can be recovered in this way.

Whether the battery has been permanently damaged by being left in a discharged state, only time will tell.

The supplying dealership should remove the battery from the car and condition it using an appropriate charger. If that fails to resolve the problem, they should replace the battery without further question.
__________________


"Just 'cos you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you"


Last edited by jrkitching; 22-11-2013 at 19:00.
jrkitching is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 23-11-2013   #15
Speed Reader of the Year!
 
Most Easterly Pandas's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 39,314
Thanks: 1232
Trader Rating: 2
Most Easterly Pandas has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Panda Twinair Stop Start issues

Quote Originally Posted by Uglyscotsguy View Post
If the battery is not charged enough to restart the car, then the alternator or battery must be faulty
It's not that it won't physically start the car, just out of the SS tolerances to allow it to cut out.

Quote Originally Posted by jrkitching View Post
I think it's highly unlikely there is anything wrong with the alternator. The car's on-board charging system is not designed to recover a deeply discharged battery.



A trickle charger will not help you.

Only an intelligent pulse charger can do what is required; some, but not all, deeply discharged batteries can be recovered in this way.
basically.
Likes varesecrazy liked this post
__________________
Most Easterly Panda's - Panda'ing in East Anglia
Stockest of mk2 Panda Parts, PM for any parts requests
1993 Classic Panda Selecta, 1989 Panda 750L,
2015 Kia Soul EV, 2009 Panda Eleganza & 2005 Panda Climbing 4x4 (LPG)
Most Easterly Pandas is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Reply
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
(T) Fiat 500 Twinair - Turn start stop off permanently! iangray100 500 54 22-12-2015 17:23
(T) Panda 0.9 Start Stop niggles pandapops Panda (2012+) 76 22-01-2014 08:36
(T) Strange start stop issues - need help ! MGB 500 12 20-08-2013 21:23
(G) Punto Evo - Start Stop Issues Tom6425 Punto Evo 13 06-08-2013 11:27
(T) Start&Stop in stop-and-go traffic Mondaugen 500 63 17-10-2011 08:07