AAB1992 said:

Hello everyone, I have a fiat panda 1.2 8v dynamic 2004 with 69,000 miles and over the past 3-4 months 1st gear and reverse are hard to engage particular when cold. Even if I wait for about 5 seconds before I put it in reverse it still crunches. Also getting into 1st and to some extent 2nd gear when cold can be difficult. In addition, sometimes when the engine is cold and I try setting off the clutch bites really low but this is only occasionally and when the car is warm it doesn’t do this. When the car is warm 1st and reverse are not as hard to get it but still noticeably more difficult than the rest of the gears. The car is still on its original clutch which isn’t slipping. So what could the problem be? All suggestions are welcome. Many thanks.

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Hello ,
we've got an identical age + miles 1.1 - BUT it's on it's 3rd / 4th clutch..( free changes under warranty due to bedding-in judder..!! ,all in first 20K )

conventionally you will have problems changing when;
1 , the clutch is not disengaging properly
2, the gearbox is not doing the selecting as it should.

some of this is temp. related.
the OLD 1.0 ( + 750 ) panda's had an adjustable rod built into the linkages and it was common to need adjustment over time , typically could select reverse ONLY when cold, you could adjust this out o.k. though.

your pedal feeling LOW at lower temps seems to point at the clutch side of things though,
firstly check the clutch fluid reservoir ( for level) do you think that the fluid is original -7 years old..?? it may be past it's best, fairly simple to flush through,

it can happen that the innards of the slave cylinder ( on top of gearbox) get starved of fluid and effect the clutch operation.. our Tempra demolished a wall when that happened.. Still LOTS of old fluid up top..!!

You may be due a clutch soon ( wear and tear) but as it's likely to be £300 /£400 in a garage I would try the simple fixes first,
also try changing through the gears while parked and the motor off ,
this may highlight any related "squeaks / tight spots "in the gearchange side,
good luck and let us know what you find,
Charlie

Thank you for the advice, i'll have a look at the cluch fluid and try changing through the gears with the engine off and i'll report back with what i find. Many thanks once again, Adam.

Might be worth bleeding the hydraulic clutch incase it's got air bubbles in it.

yes you can use dot 4

AAB1992 said:

Right! I’ve come to the conclusion that clutch fluid is past it, the level is low and fluid has lots of bits in it.
Does anyone know if i can use DOT 4 fluid instead of DOT 3?
Also how much in terms of quantity will i need for a fluid change?
Finally, how easy is it to actually change the clutch fluid, as i would like to have ago myself?
Many thanks once again.

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Hello ,
It's not too difficult, try and read through this a couple of times to figure it out..,
VERY similar to bleeding the brake fluid ..IF you've tried that.

basically you put clean fluid in the reservoir under the bonnet,( Buy 2 x 500ml bottles + only open 1 when needed - it "goes off" and absorbs moisture)
and use the clutch pedal to push the fluid into the slave cylinder ( on top of the gearbox) ,
and undo the small bleed nipple on the side of the slave cylinder to let the dirrty fluid out..!!, Best to use a bit of clear hose for this( screen washer type stuff)

You WILL need either a " beautiful young assistant" or an "easibleed" type kit which pressurises the Reservoir end so you don't have to keep pumping the clutch pedal..!!

I would syringe out ALL the dirty fluid from the reservoir and replace it with NEW clean brake fluid ( DOT 3 or4),
Then apply pressure to the pedal - keep the pressure on ..!! ( when the nipple is opened - the pedal will go right down to the floor / carpet..KEEP YOR FOOT DOWN),
then ( assistant) slowly open ( unscrew 1/2 a turn) the bleed nipple and let the OLD fluid run ito an old jamjar ,ETC. then CLOSE the bleed nipple. ( then release your foot pressure).

to ONE pump of the pedal you will only pump a small amount of fluid..

BE Careful to keep topping-up the fluid level in the reservoir
( if the level gets too low you could suck AIR into the clutch pipe)( bad news..!!)

Basically continue this routine until you get CLEAN fluid coming out of the bleed nipple,
THEN ,
close the nipple shut and then try giving the clutch pedal a couple of SHARP pumps , this may dislodge some air bubbles,
with the assistants foot still HARD on the clutch pedal,
just - Slightly - open and close the bleed nipple , this should send out the last air,
once clear fluid with no air bubbles comes out you are good to go,


I personally then replace the caps on both the reservoir - and little bootie on the bleed nipple ( if still intact..!!) and wash off the areas with water as Brake fluid is a VERY effective paint stripper.

As a precaution ,
put the car in gear - depress the clutch - and then briefly turn the starter ,
if the car lurches forward then the clutch is still dragging.. NEEDS further investigation,

BUT , you should be A1 ,
good luck,
let us know how it goes ,
Charlie

Thanks for the great advice!!! its much appreciated!

Right, I've finally got round to changing the clutch fluid, all went ok, but it hasn't made any difference to my original problem. I still find it very hard to select 1st, 2nd and reverse when the car is cold.

However, the problem isn’t as pronounced when the car is warm which I find strange.

Furthermore, when I try and select all the gears with the engine off (but cold) I can select all gears perfectly!? This leads me to believe its something to do with the clutch, am I right?

Also how much am I looking at for a new clutch? So far I’ve been quoted £160 for labour if I supply the clutch myself. Many thanks

I'd change the gearbox oil myself just incase it's this. Tbh sounds similar to my Stilo in the winter. Awful selecting gears when cod but once warmed up it's fine. I've just sort of got used to it though.

It won't be the clutch, don't waste your money changing the clutch.

Clutches either grip or slip, that's about it. If they slip, it's time for a new clutch, if they don't it's fine.

Gears are always easy to select when the engine isn't running as the output shaft isn't moving.

If when pressing the clutch the slave cylinder actuates the clutch fine that is not the problem.

Your problem is either a cable problem or selector problem where the cables join to it outside the gearbox.

If it's just a bit stiff when cold and is fine when it warms up, don't worry about it, most cars are like this. It just takes a bit of time for the oil to warm up.

You could change the gear oil, ought to be easy to do yourself. I haven't done it on a Panda but have a number of times on other cars. Cost around £30 for the oil. It will just be a bog standard one for the Panda. I'd go for Castrol.

Couple of comments.

In the circumstances where you're experiencing the problem - cold start, not having run car since, say, the day before - pump the clutch pedal three or four times before trying to select a gear. If selecting first or reverse is then easy you've almost certainly got a problem with either the clutch master cylinder - not shifting enough fluid up the pipe on a single stroke - or the slave cylinder - enough fluid being pushed to it but not enough movement of the slave piston. Neither problem is necessarily obvious by spotting fluid leakage as the fluid just seems to go to and fro past the seals without escaping from the cylinder.

I don't think it's happening, but is there any whine that appears to be coming from the clutch area? - could just be that the release bearing is on its way out.

Thanks for all your replies. With regards to gearbox oil it was changed in April so I don’t think that is the cause otherwise even with the engine cold and off the gears should be stiff and difficult to get in but they’re not so I still think it’s the clutch.
Directly addressing the points raised by babbo_umbron even if I pump the clutch pedal 3-4 times it makes no difference so the hydraulics are fine. This only leaves the clutch its self. I did some research of my own before I posted on here and it did mention release bearings and something about not slowing the gears down enough which makes it harder to select gears. Also, when you say a whine do you mean when changing gear or just when driving along?
Anyway in the past two days the clutch has started to judder significantly when setting off, something I have never had a problem with before, so my money is on the clutch and the problem is probably the release bearings.