General Cross 4x4 at play in the snow

[fsmr]

Just uploaded this short clip on my sons Youtube
(i have my own youtube account as a press officer at a railway but its sort of off topic for what i do)

Any way after sledging up and down their hill at my elderly parents in high Leicestershire, i thought it would be fun to take her 09 plate cross for a spin up the hill on the field to see how good the traction was. I did need to put the ELD button on but after that it was fine. One thing i did notice is that first is a tad high for hill starts and you need to gun it a bit else it will stall, other than that i managed to stop on the steepest part and then restart and thats on the factory fitted michelin snows (its only done 7 k so they are part worn
This is car we had to go 120 miles to Epsom to buy from Willsons at New year 2009/2010 due to severe lack of any 2nd hand and heavy snow everywhere.
Looks like it might be a godsend again as their lane is off limits now to all but 4x4s and tractors with snow and ice covering the 2 miles of steep hills and hollows and tell tale marks where lesser cars have got stuck and had to be rescued

 

[LeanMeanRacing]

It's good to see a Panda in action

 

[doctorchris]

Call that a hill!
We've got speed bumps steeper than that in the North East!
Sorry, well done and glad you had fun!!

 

[LeanMeanRacing]

Any way after sledging up and down their hill......

doctorchris is being too mean - sledging up a hill is very impressive indeed!

 

[fsmr]

doctorchris is being too mean - sledging up a hill is very impressive indeed!

Its quiet deceptive slope, its steeper than it looks and cant get a front wheel drive up there in the summer on the grass without doing 40 mph up from the bottom.

More snow coming in tonight although i will be out in my classic landrover rescuing cars and trucks in Rutland
Nige

 

[W23AJH 100HP]

I would like to see a video of a 100HP having a go at that!!

 

[gwat74]

Finally got some proper snow here in Sheffield, 1-2 ft. so have had a chance to see just how good the cross is! I'm impressed, it was better than I had anticipated. Made light work getting of my side road, much to the surprise of the neighbours who said I had no chance, I then went for a bit of a play, finding roads that hadn't been used and I didn't get stuck once. I did get plenty off people staring and pointing, they probably haven't ever noticed a panda cross until today.( or they were saying look at that prat, driving in this weather!!!)
All in all, well pleased with it, glad I bought it when I did.

 

[306maxi]

I would like to see a video of a 100HP having a go at that!!

Why do you want to see a 100hp sliding backwards down a hill or ripping it's bumper off?

 

[fsmr]

Why do you want to see a 100hp sliding backwards down a hill or ripping it's bumper off?

LOL
You wouldnt even get into the field in a 2wd car let alone up the slope:bang:

As i say i am really mpressed with how the little car performs

and this is my toy below in the December 1st 2010 Snow in the East Midlands so i know a bit about serious off roading!!
BTW this is a "B" road

 

[306maxi]

LOL
You wouldnt even get into the field in a 2wd car let alone up the slope:bang:

As i say i am really mpressed with how the little car performs

and this is my toy below in the December 1st 2010 Snow in the East Midlands so i know a bit about serious off roading!!
BTW this is a "B" road

You could do in a RWD car with good ground clearance My Peugeot 504 once made it in and out of a muddy field back in Australia where a couple of AWD cars struggled M+S tyres softly spung suspension FTW!

 

[fsmr]

Well the Panda excelled itself today

On one of the steepest and notorious hills at apropriatelyTilton on The Hill, in high East Leics, not only did my mum (in her 70s) get up the 1 in 4 hill on packed snow and ice but she had to stop half way up while i moved a stuck mercedes out of the way with my landy. (i went shotgun in front for the 7 miles x country trip till she got to main roads for urgent hospital appt)
The fact she actually got going from a stop and managed to squeze past the merc and me was so funny
The poor guy in the merc was gobsmacked at the Pandas effortless performance, and with 3 up
, especially when i said it was my elderly mum

Think he is going to out looking for a cross now but he did give me £20 which I am giving to a cancer research charity

Shortly after she got up, I had to rescue a 4x4 VW Toureg £45 grand motor that failed on grip after a run up and ended up crabbing sideways, and most 2 wd cars ran out of grip 1/2 way despite having only one car attacking the hill at a time

so Yep the panda cross is a great little car
Nige

 

[306maxi]

Well the Panda excelled itself today

On one of the steepest and notorious hills at apropriatelyTilton on The Hill, in high East Leics, not only did my mum (in her 70s) get up the 1 in 4 hill on packed snow and ice but she had to stop half way up while i moved a stuck mercedes out of the way with my landy. (i went shotgun in front for the 7 miles x country trip till she got to main roads for urgent hospital appt)
The fact she actually got going from a stop and managed to squeze past the merc and me was so funny
The poor guy in the merc was gobsmacked at the Pandas effortless performance, and with 3 up
, especially when i said it was my elderly mum

Think he is going to out looking for a cross now but he did give me £20 which I am giving to a cancer research charity

Shortly after she got up, I had to rescue a 4x4 VW Toureg £45 grand motor that failed on grip after a run up and ended up crabbing sideways, and most 2 wd cars ran out of grip 1/2 way despite having only one car attacking the hill at a time

so Yep the panda cross is a great little car
Nige

Looking forward to getting some winter tyres on the Subaru at some stage and seeing what it can do

 

[paul100hp]

but he did give me £20 which I am giving to a cancer research charity

Nice one.


Stupid question time but :

Have to ask as ive never driven a 4x4, why are they so much better in snow and ice. I understand that all 4 wheels are driven and on rough ground, even if you only have 1 wheel on the ground, in theory you should still move forward. But on ice surely if all wheels are spinning you still wont get anywhere.

 

[bumble]

In addition to my Barchetta, I also have a Volvo XC70 AWD and an elderly Freelander, both of which have been invaluable in the heavy snow. Can someone explain to me how the Panda 4x4 AWD actually works. My father is interested in buying one, having been confined to his Northumberland village for a week now. MAny thanks - Steve

 

[bumble]

Nice one.


Stupid question time but :

Have to ask as ive never driven a 4x4, why are they so much better in snow and ice. I understand that all 4 wheels are driven and on rough ground, even if you only have 1 wheel on the ground, in theory you should still move forward. But on ice surely if all wheels are spinning you still wont get anywhere.

I dont know how the Fiat system works but on a permanent AWD vehicle, both axles are constantly driven. Wheels only spin when the resistance caused by the mass of the vehicle is greater than the resistance between the tyres and the road. On an AWD vehicle, you have double the driving axles thus halving the resistance. However, due to the differentials on the axles, most vehicles will only get one wheel on each axle spinning. This can be overcome by limited slip diffs or, even better, diff locks. More modern vehicles like the volvo, are part time AWD. They are primarily front wheel drive but when the traction control detects a front wheel spinning, it instantly allows drive to the rear axle. This provides better fuel economy and saves tyre wear too. The system works well and my Volvo has been able to cope with some really deep snow and icy roads. Hope this helps.

Steve

 

[paul100hp]

Cheers Steve.

 

[306maxi]

If you feel that winter tyres are a helpful thing then please send an email to our gormless transport minister Philip Hammon who seems to think that winter tyres = studded tyres -> http://uk.autoblog.com/2010/12/03/transport-minister-slammed-over-confused-winter-tyre-message/

 

[Derv drinker]

Nice to see just how good the Cross is, my MJ still surprises me. Over the past 3 years with the snowy bad periods it has performed well in the snow, across the Mendips when I was doing courier work, it was scary but the MJ still did them with ease. They only time I don't push it is when the front valence makes like a snow plough. It has left rear wheel drive motors trailing this week, and appologies to the Taxi driver who was right up behind me at the roundabout 0430 Thur, at Eastleigh Airport next time leave more room and know your car and conditions then you won't end up looking like a right plonker going backwards round the roundabout - I made it, he must have thought the little Panda made it so I will just stay right up behind him!!

 

[fsmr]

Nice one.


Stupid question time but :

Have to ask as ive never driven a 4x4, why are they so much better in snow and ice. I understand that all 4 wheels are driven and on rough ground, even if you only have 1 wheel on the ground, in theory you should still move forward. But on ice surely if all wheels are spinning you still wont get anywhere.

Ok a basic tech lesson in transmissions and 4wd

The first 4x4’s like the land-rovers up to 1983 used the rear wheels for normal drive, and then using a selector, either high range selectable 4x4 or low range constant 4x4 to drive the front axle.
Due to cornering, all axles on any car also require a differential. This allows the inside corner wheel to travel less than the outside (think of sprinters on an oval circuit)
The drawback with this is that if one wheel hits poor ground or even gets air borne, then the drive goes to that one and not the wheel with traction. This is how a car gets stuck pulling off the road even if one wheel is still on the road. On serious off road, you can fit special differentials (diffs) which can be locked mechanically by air or electric. You can’t of course then turn corners very weel and never on hard surface. When ABS arrived, it allowed manufacturers to use the ABS kit in reverse so many now add traction control and electronic diff locks (ELD)to their cars. The former controls the power applied to prevent wheel spin, whereas the ELD when applied (usually automatically) will brake the wheel with no grip to transfer power to the spinning wheel. This as i say is good on 2wd cars where you might pull half the car off the road for a passing truck etc, and providing you leave one driven wheel on the road, you won’t get stuck An even further advance is to brake individual wheels using gyroscopes on board to maintain control ina skid etc. This is known as ESP or electronic stability program

Anyway back to 4x4, so the next step was to add full time 4x4 to vehicles. The Range Rover being one of the pioneers. However due to the same issue with cornering across the axle, the exact happens front to back axles due differences in wear on tyres, and also when cornering (the rear axle does not follow the front but cuts in the corner. This difference has to be removed otherwise it would be very hard to corner, the tyres would scrub out, and on high grip surfaces, the transmission could even be broken

So we have another differential fitted in there between front and rear
The same issues occur with this differential as across the axle, so if you pull into a muddy gateway leaving the rear wheel on the road, you can get stuck. To get around this, this differential can be made as limited slip (or viscous coupling in tech jargon) This allows some differential slip but once it increases, such as in the above scenario, it locks up transferring power to the axle with grip away from the slipping axle. Another way to do this is to actually lock the differential by mechanical or electrical lock which is used on many serious 4x4s where limited slip diffs would be overworked.

Going back to the use of ABS in reverse in terms of ELD, this is now the preferred mode on most modern 4x4 such as the Range Rover sport and the Panda Cross. This then allows power to be moved around all the wheels so that even if only one wheel has grip, that will still receive full power. This increases the cars ability to keep traction enormously over a conventional setup unless all 3 differentials can be mechanically locked up.
So to recap, the cross has permanent 4 wheel drive with limited slip Diff front to back with selectable electronic lockup and electronic distribution of power across the wheels using the brakes
Obviously, although a brilliant piece of technology, all systems utilising the brakes cause more wear on them so keep an eye on pads if you do a lot of off-roading

Of course 4x4 is only part of the package, increased ground clearance and large winter tyres, and engine protecting skid plates (which also reduce drag on deep snow) complete the car

Anyone still awake LOL

 

[Cookecarey]

Brilliant explanation, so, now we know!
My 2WD MJ has been very sure footed, great in the snow/ice on stock tyres, given the limited amounts of the stuff we have had in the Malverns.
Still fancy the Cross, but heart was overruled by head at purchase time.
No regrets.
Still covetous though!
Brilliant, big hearted little cars.