General Cross 4x4 at play in the snow

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General Cross 4x4 at play in the snow

If you feel that winter tyres are a helpful thing then please send an email to our gormless transport minister Philip Hammon who seems to think that winter tyres = studded tyres -> http://uk.autoblog.com/2010/12/03/transport-minister-slammed-over-confused-winter-tyre-message/

<RANT ON!>

I am amazed at this - it only goes to uphold the Europeans view that British drivers are the least aware of anything about cars and generally hopeless when the weather turns nasty. Although I am not an ADI instructor, I have coached enough people on cars and bikes to realise how little interest or ability most people have on the roads.

And to read that insurance companies are trying to dissuade people from fitting proper winter tyres make my blood boil. If I had my way I'd make them compulsary between November and Feb and be done with it. And force re-tests every 5 years, giving all of our hardworking Driving Instructors an almost limitless supply of work into the bargain!

My wife has a Honda S2000 - one of the least stable and tail-slide resistant cars known to makind, in the wet let alone the snow. Yet on Thursday last week, in 11 inches of snow, it sailed up a decent hill, past a floundering bafoon in a Volvo XC90 (who was giving it 5000rpm in first gear whilst sliding backwards), without so much as a hiccup. That traction is entirely down to the Goodyear Ultragrip Performance snow tyres I (quite by chance) happened to fit the week earlier. Proof positive that winter tyres are the only way we're going to keep this country moving in bad weather.....

.... apart from all the idiots of course who will continue to drive like they always do.

<RANT OFF>
 
I saw this on a local forum:
The idiots are out in force! I was overtaken IN THE SNOW by an idiot on the hill going up to Cherhill in the week - snow blowing over the road the lot..............I am not one to wish ill on anyone; but the thought did cross my mind that it would serve the idiot right if he ended up in a ditch...
and I'm wondering if he was referring to me...
I did overtake a Landrover of all things doing about 23mph up Cherhill on clear tamac. I took to the very slightly slushy overtaking lane and went past him, admittedly in a cloud of steam since the slush had splashed my exhaust.

That was as snowy as it got for us over here...
 
Again, not wanting to get all huffy again, but even overtaking in this country now is seen by many as an act of road-rage, regardless of the weather. We are such a risk averse nation now - what with even a little mist and cold requiring a 'Severe Weather Warning' every night on TV - that the majority of the population will assume that anyone going faster than them is dangerous and wholly unacceptable. Typically most drivers will assess the ability of others based purely on their own skills and experience, which in the main of course is very little.

My father-in-law drives everywhere at only 70% of the prevailing limit, absolutely certain of his view that this will make him a safer driver. In truth of course he spends his entire time causing immense frustration, dangerous road situations when people see even a sniff of an opportunity to overtake and has been seen to punch the dashboard and try to take the numbers of cars hooting him as they go past, wanting to report them to the police for road-rage. Very sad. Trouble is, his views will soon become those of the majority I fear, as people like some of us, for whom driving is a continually studied and developed passion, are slowly but surely beaten into submission.

Plenty will argue that if the blanket speed limit in the UK was 20mph, nobody would ever die on the roads. Very true, but of course impractical in the extreme. Plenty of people would be happy for that though....

.... and breathe...!

Phil
 
"Plenty will argue that if the blanket speed limit in the UK was 20mph, nobody would ever die on the roads. "

Portsmouth started a blanket 20mph limit a couple of years ago. If there was ever a town that needed curbing, Portsmouth is it. After a year the council published a report saying that the 20 mph limit had not reduced casualties or deaths. It's still largely ignored by the good people of Southsea in particular.

I don't know what they teach on the current driving scheme, but it was the case in 2000 when I last worked for the DSA that pupils were told to keep up with traffic where legal and safe, as dilatory driving caused resentment and accidents. There are obvious exceptions; schools, etc.

My own father, aged 83 with cateracts, insists on driving every Sunday, at 20 mph. He's a complete menace. What can I do? Stay away from Bromley Common on Sundays, people. :)

The other point Phil makes about even safe overtaking being seen as a reason for road rage also strikes a resonance. People don't like it.
 
...And force re-tests every 5 years, giving all of our hardworking Driving Instructors an almost limitless supply of work into the bargain!

Wow! Someone who demonstrates a little respect for us ADIs ;)

You will be pleased to know that I haven't cancelled any lessons due to the snow/ice and have taken every opportunity to teach the appropriate skills for driving in such conditions (y)

Oh, and periodic retesting (y)
 
Aye Up Bumble,

With regard to your query re how does a part time 4x4 system work, a relative of mine was involved in the design of the systems employed on the Volvo XC, early Freelander, Renault RX4 etc and explained it to me like this - The engine drives the front wheels as per a normal FWD vehicle.
A further (forward) drive shaft runs towards the rear of the vehicle to a coupling approximately in the centre of the vehicle. Within the coupling is a material that is fluid when the forward drive shaft is rotating at a low speed, i.e. when the front wheels have grip. After the coupling the (rearward) shaft continues to the rear differential unit.
If a front wheel loses grip and spins the forward drive shaft faster than usual, the centre coupling fluid heats up, becomes almost sold and turns the rearward drive shaft and via the rear differential drives the rear wheels. I suspect that the Panda 4x4's use a similar system.
This probably explains why some of the Panda 4x4 vids on You Tube show a Panda with wheels spinning at the first attempts to negotiate an obstacle which they subsequently accomplish with ease. Once the fluid has warmed up the system probably kicks in almost instantaneously. Conversley when the fluid cools down the system reverts to back FWD. The Cross also has electronic diff locks fitted which I believe operate via the ABS system, locking out a spinning wheel but across the axles. Bear? in mind though that until the centre coupling has aleady been activated, drive will not be delivered to the rear wheels and so it is likely that the diff locks (and therefore traction) will only be supplied by the front wheels.
I tend to leave the diff locks off until I have experienced a bit of wheel spin and know that the rear wheels are driving as well as the front. After that the little marvel climbs or negotiates most surfaces with relative ease. So far the only limitations I have found with it are ground clearance and tyres but this has been in more extreme circumstances way beyond normal snow & ice conditions or even light forestry use.
As for the comment by fsmr re the Toureg - I previously owned a Freelander2 with all the bells and whistles (megabux) and it struggled where the Fiat prevailed!



Under good grip driving conditionsThe engine drives the front
 
Again, not wanting to get all huffy again, but even overtaking in this country now is seen by many as an act of road-rage, regardless of the weather..

Phil

I had a gentlemen chase me for nearly 5 miles, to handbrake in front of my car!, to then complain about my INSANE speed on the dual carriageway (clean of all snow and NOT icy). I had myself, my wife and three year old in the car, I was doing 50 mph. The fact that he blocked a road seemed to pass him by. Thankfully the policeman who had followed him tailgating me was happy to show him the error of his ways :slayer:

I drive 30-40k a year in all conditions, and at all times, his poxy Mazda 6 had near bald front tyres ( just over legal limit according to policeman) I had new tyres on, unfrozen wiper bottle, clean windscreen, clean side windows etc etc

Had to laugh
 
Hi Pinball,
thats a good explanation of the viscous coupling provided with the earlier 4x4 modells, but the cross and the later 4x4 have an electronic controlled system (maybe like the haldex system).

But I'm still looking for more information on this system...does anybody know, who builds the electronic controlled 4x4 system of the panda? The "old" viscous coupling was built by GKN.

Stefan
 
Hello Stefan,

That's interesting about the Cross having an electronic system, I will be pleased to hear exactly how it functions if it is the case - but also a bit disapponted! I'm not a great fan of electronics (harks back to the overdrive on a Reliant Scimitar LOL) - the 'old' viscous system was very simple and I never broke one in spite of pushing them hard off road. By the way, I noticed the German flag (and name) - thinking back to what was mentioned earlier in this thread about European views on UK drivers (R1NGA). Not only have Europeans had the benefit of harsh winter conditions for many years to build experience, whilst I was stationed in Germany (6 years), nearly all the lads did national service and were well clued up on 4x4ing. Coincidentally, that relative I mentioned is Austrian - now they really know how to build serious 4x4's - wonder if they've had a hand in the Panda Cross - they only live next door to the Italians?! Keep us posted Stefan. Alles Gute. Auf Wiederhoeren!
 
Hello Stefan,

That's interesting about the Cross having an electronic system, I will be pleased to hear exactly how it functions if it is the case - but also a bit disapponted! I'm not a great fan of electronics (harks back to the overdrive on a Reliant Scimitar LOL) - the 'old' viscous system was very simple and I never broke one in spite of pushing them hard off road.

Yes but this isn't some ****ty british designed british built piece of crap so it should be OK :)
 
Ooooooh - 306maxi,

I sense some pain there! Bad experience pal? But guess what - since StefanG's post I've done an hours worth of research and so far every report that I can find going back to 2005 states that the Panda Cross has a front differential, a front power take off unit and does have a viscous coupling ahead of the rear diff. Whats more they all state that it was produced by GKN Driveline - a British company! (Probably owned by our American cousins if you dig deep enough LOL) This might be corroborated by info on GKN's own site identifying a connection with Fiat. The Cross's system is enhanced by electronic locking diffs working via the ABS system which I can live with as its only a modern version of the old double handbrake system rigged up on hill climb cars.
The haldex system (Swedish) sounds more complex in terms of electronic sensors and one development of it is reported as being fitted exclusively to the LR Freelander 2 (one of which I got rid of in favour of the Fiat!).
Going back to the original Panda 4x4 I have read that Steyr (Austrian) did have something to do with that system - if you know about and have seen a Haflinger 4x4 climb a mountainside you will understand why that Panda was so good.
The Cross drive train info is still not 100% confirmed, the jury is still out but it's looking good for the brits! What you got Stefan?!
 
Ooooooh - 306maxi,

I sense some pain there! Bad experience pal?

Nah.

My ownership experience is thus

Fiat 131 - Fantastic car, died in a small crash
Peugeot 504 - Best car I've ever owned. Had it for 4 years and the worst thing it ever did was refuse to start when a wire which was probably 25+ years old broke off the starter motor. Had to let it go when I moved to the UK
Audi 80 - Free car from my mother in law. Had it for a couple of weeks, truly dismal car
Peugeot 406 - Had a hard life with a previous owner and blew its headgasket twice. Got scrappaged for my current car
Fiat 500 - Not quite up to 504 level yet but a good car with good roots (Panda :) )

I think British products can be really good. You need only look at Formula 1, Quaife, AP Racing and other quality British component manufacturers but by and large British companies designing and building British cars under the rule of British accountants are rubbish :p
 
I'd say some truth in that plus any good ideas we have in this country tend to get ignored if those 'accountants' you mention can't see a fast buck - the small diesel engine in passenger vehicles is a classic example - but our German neighbours weren't so short sighted about it! Mind you, can't say I was over impressed with Fiats in the past - we had an Uno (or One-ohh as we used to call it) great when new but fell apart rapidly when it reached its third birthday inspite of regular maintenance - shockers, head gaskets, electrical faults one after the other! Thought I'd give them another chance though. So far so good!
Caio.
 
Aye Up Bumble,

With regard to your query re how does a part time 4x4 system work, a relative of mine was involved in the design of the systems employed on the Volvo XC, early Freelander, Renault RX4 etc and explained it to me like this - The engine drives the front wheels as per a normal FWD vehicle.
A further (forward) drive shaft runs towards the rear of the vehicle to a coupling approximately in the centre of the vehicle. Within the coupling is a material that is fluid when the forward drive shaft is rotating at a low speed, i.e. when the front wheels have grip. After the coupling the (rearward) shaft continues to the rear differential unit.
If a front wheel loses grip and spins the forward drive shaft faster than usual, the centre coupling fluid heats up, becomes almost sold and turns the rearward drive shaft and via the rear differential drives the rear wheels. I suspect that the Panda 4x4's use a similar system.
This probably explains why some of the Panda 4x4 vids on You Tube show a Panda with wheels spinning at the first attempts to negotiate an obstacle which they subsequently accomplish with ease. Once the fluid has warmed up the system probably kicks in almost instantaneously. Conversley when the fluid cools down the system reverts to back FWD. The Cross also has electronic diff locks fitted which I believe operate via the ABS system, locking out a spinning wheel but across the axles. Bear? in mind though that until the centre coupling has aleady been activated, drive will not be delivered to the rear wheels and so it is likely that the diff locks (and therefore traction) will only be supplied by the front wheels.
I tend to leave the diff locks off until I have experienced a bit of wheel spin and know that the rear wheels are driving as well as the front. After that the little marvel climbs or negotiates most surfaces with relative ease. So far the only limitations I have found with it are ground clearance and tyres but this has been in more extreme circumstances way beyond normal snow & ice conditions or even light forestry use.
As for the comment by fsmr re the Toureg - I previously owned a Freelander2 with all the bells and whistles (megabux) and it struggled where the Fiat prevailed!

Really informative - well done. I think the XC70 D5 is an amazing car. The part time four wheel drive has been incredible in the snow and, under normal use my automatic/geartronic gets me over 40mpg on average. One problem that has beset me a couple of times was when driving through very deep loose snow. The car lost power and a message "Urgent service required" was displayed on the dash. The car stayed in first gear and the engine, although not misfiring, wouldnt rev. I thought that it had defaulted to some sort of emergency 'get you home' mode and I drove it, very slowly to my local garage. My mechanic friend laughed, turned off the traction control and the car was immediately restored to full power. Apparently, this is common on such 4WD cars and is caused when ice/snow builds up on the ABS sensors on the front wheels. After a short drive, I turned the TC back on and all was well. Anyway, thanks for your explanation.

Steve
 
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