Technical Sticking valves

Currently reading:
Technical Sticking valves

hmallett

Mr Pedantic
Joined
Mar 2, 2005
Messages
5,102
Points
759
Location
Wales
This all took place a couple of weeks ago, but I haven't posted here until now because it winds me up too much to think about it!
For a while now (many, many months) my car had a bit of a slight, intermittent misfire and lack of power when cold. It had this mentioned when it went for a service, but no fault was found. It must have been like this for over 12000 miles, because it went for another service, then it went for a failed EGR valve (again). When we went to pick it up after EGR replacement the misfire was there, so we got a tech to look at it, and they kept it for a few more days.

They did compression tests (wet and dry) and the compression was low on both, on cylinders 3 & 4. Both tests being low usually means either faulty valve(s) or busted (rather than slightly worn) piston rings as far as I'm aware.
Apparently the valves were freed, but I was warned that this may not cure the root of the problem, and if it returned, the head would have to come off, which would be in the region of £600-800. Sure enough a week later the problem returned, and it seems to be worse than before. If the piston rings were cracked I believe the misfire would be there all the time, rather than intermittently.

So here's what I'm thinking:
1. I assume that the valves were probably freed by removing the camcover and just getting access to the cam end of the valve. If so I might have a go at this myself, except the Multijet has the air filter assembly on top the engine. I assume it's fairly straightforward to remove this and get the camcover off?
2. Why would valves stick? I don't know if it's the inlet or exhaust valves which are sticking. The three things I can think of are that the back of the valve is contaminated (on the exhaust valve, but no way to see this without taking the head off), the valve stem isn't well lubricated (possibly due to poor oil flow), or the valve is bent or damaged (would this give an intermittent misfire though?).
3. Why would you get two this happening on two adjacent cylinders? I'm not sure how the oil gets to the valves and cams to lubricate them, but I wonder if there could be something impeding the oil flow up that end. Alternatively it could just be bad luck.
4. If it can't be sorted properly without the head off, I might take it to Motormech in Birmingham, where I had the head off my Coupe 20VT and a new valve for about £300. If I end up doing that it might be worth rebuilding the top end.... on a car with 75k miles.

So what do you all think? :confused:
 
The root of the problem may not actually be the valve itself but the guide is runs in..the only way your going to find out is as others have said is to get the head lifted and all valves and guides checked..never rains but poures dont it H..:(
 
This reply might seem quite bizarre to many, but if I had this problem, these are the two things I would do first; -

!. Change the oil to a fully synthetic. Vauxhall had a sticking valve issue with some of the Vectra engines a few years back, due to economizing on materials spec. for the valves. Running on fully synthetic solved the problem. The technical explanation will only bore you.

2. Add an upper cylinder lubricant to the fuel, - (Redex).

I would be surprised if one of these two measures didn't do the trick.
 
This all took place a couple of weeks ago, but I haven't posted here until now because it winds me up too much to think about it!
For a while now (many, many months) my car had a bit of a slight, intermittent misfire and lack of power when cold. It had this mentioned when it went for a service, but no fault was found. It must have been like this for over 12000 miles, because it went for another service, then it went for a failed EGR valve (again). When we went to pick it up after EGR replacement the misfire was there, so we got a tech to look at it, and they kept it for a few more days.

They did compression tests (wet and dry) and the compression was low on both, on cylinders 3 & 4. Both tests being low usually means either faulty valve(s) or busted (rather than slightly worn) piston rings as far as I'm aware.
Apparently the valves were freed, but I was warned that this may not cure the root of the problem, and if it returned, the head would have to come off, which would be in the region of £600-800. Sure enough a week later the problem returned, and it seems to be worse than before. If the piston rings were cracked I believe the misfire would be there all the time, rather than intermittently.

So here's what I'm thinking:
1. I assume that the valves were probably freed by removing the camcover and just getting access to the cam end of the valve. If so I might have a go at this myself, except the Multijet has the air filter assembly on top the engine. I assume it's fairly straightforward to remove this and get the camcover off?
2. Why would valves stick? I don't know if it's the inlet or exhaust valves which are sticking. The three things I can think of are that the back of the valve is contaminated (on the exhaust valve, but no way to see this without taking the head off), the valve stem isn't well lubricated (possibly due to poor oil flow), or the valve is bent or damaged (would this give an intermittent misfire though?).
3. Why would you get two this happening on two adjacent cylinders? I'm not sure how the oil gets to the valves and cams to lubricate them, but I wonder if there could be something impeding the oil flow up that end. Alternatively it could just be bad luck.
4. If it can't be sorted properly without the head off, I might take it to Motormech in Birmingham, where I had the head off my Coupe 20VT and a new valve for about £300. If I end up doing that it might be worth rebuilding the top end.... on a car with 75k miles.

So what do you all think? :confused:
It's probably just as far or even further from you as Birmingham but GMS in Prestatyn have been good with my wifes Subaru and charge very reasonable rates. I supplied all the bits and bobs for some work they did recently on the wifes Subaru and for an intermediate service (all fluids checked, oil change, filters, plugs) and doing the rocker cover gaskets which on a Subaru is a c**t of a job, they charged a grand total of £120 inc VAT which i thought was very reasonable considering that they would to have removed a lot of stuff to get to it and access is an absolute pig as you can imagine with the heads being so close to the chassis rails plus they did the plugs on the other side as well. They previously did the timing belt, pulleys and tensioners as well and when they got the wrong kit which was meant for a twincam (the wifes Subaru is a 4 cam) they went into bat and got the supplier to supply the proper kit at the twincam kits price which must have been at least £50-£70 more so they're good guys and they do seem to care about their customers.

As for what's causing it I don't have the foggiest but I do think it's worth calling Fiat up and making a bit of noise and seeing where it gets you. Probably nowhere but if you don't ask you don't get.
 
I've met this guy his name is Howard can recommend him as well and no doubt not that far from where you live now..

http://www.italia.org.uk/

used to run 2 rally stilo's met him at brooklands some years ago..worth a phone call (y)
 
While removing the head is the easiest option, I'm currently inclined to try any cheaper options first ;)
I don't know why but I have this bee in my bonnet about oil at the moment. I had a look at the manual for a recent Panda and it specifies a 5W40 synthetic for the Multijet engine. I know my Panda only had semi-sythetic at the first service (thanks Stoneacre :mad:), and I'm wondering what has been added at previous services, as 5W40 isn't the most common grade of oil around. (The 40 bit is, the 5 bit less so).
Also, I'm thinking that whetever the garage did before (without taking the head off) worked for a week or so before it went again....
Perhaps I'm just clutching at straws, but this car has cost me quite a bit for what has been a very reliable car until a year ago. :(
Also I have been meaning to write to Fiat to "express my disappointment", but like this thread, I've been putting it off...
 
I think stoneacre need a good kick up the jack if they used the 10w 40 in your car the fiat group actually threw out the 10/40 and went wide range 5w 40 over 2 years ago even tried to put that in my 1.2 which should have the 10w 40..:eek: this makes me wonder what the feck they are using in the cars that come into their workshop..:chin:

What are you putting in at top up time..?
 
Last edited:
I think stoneacre need a good kick up the jack if they used the 10w 40 in your car the fiat group actually threw out the 10/40 and went wide range 5w 40 over 2 years ago even tried to put that in my 1.2 which should have the 10w 40..:eek: this makes me wonder what the feck they are using in the cars that come into their workshop..:chin:

What are you putting in at top up time..?
hence why when I get my car serviced I'm taking a tin of Selenia 5w40 in with the car and not just getting what they put in. Not that i don't trust the independent that I'll be using but at least I'll know for sure and can prove it anything needs to be done under warranty. TDQ is very correct when she says that garages have a few big barrels of oil and just put the oil in which is closest to the spec that your car needs.

I like a lot of other Panda/500 owners intend to keep my car for a while so sticking to the servicing schedule is important for me.
 
I think stoneacre need a good kick up the jack if they used the 10w 40 in your car the fiat group actually threw out the 10/40 and went wide range 5w 40 over 2 years ago...
What are you putting in at top up time..?
The Stoneacre service was about 3.5 years ago. I've never been there since.
The car never needs an oil top up - it's never had one!
I like a lot of other Panda/500 owners intend to keep my car for a while so sticking to the servicing schedule is important for me.
My plan was to keep the Panda and use it as a commutard until it fell apart, getting a separate car for funtimes as funds allowed. I didn't realise that I'd be this pissed off with it in less than 4 years. :(
 
Also I have been meaning to write to Fiat to "express my disappointment", but like this thread, I've been putting it off...

Don't put it off any longer. I have recently found them to be quite understanding and reasonable in relation to a problem I had with my Panda.

Give them a ring...
 
My plan was to keep the Panda and use it as a commutard until it fell apart, getting a separate car for funtimes as funds allowed. I didn't realise that I'd be this pissed off with it in less than 4 years. :(

Don't despair though, it may just be a small issue which can be sorted quickly and there is always the option of getting rid and changing it.
 
ive been getting wound up about this too. I am not the best person to deal with when something pisses me off. When I collected the car after the valve had been unstuck, they said if we have anymore problems then the head would need to come off. he then asked me how i liked the 500 that i had been driving and made it clear that the panda may be lost cause and should look at buying a 500. Friggin hell the car isnt 4 year old yet!!!!
 
ive been getting wound up about this too. I am not the best person to deal with when something pisses me off. When I collected the car after the valve had been unstuck, they said if we have anymore problems then the head would need to come off. he then asked me how i liked the 500 that i had been driving and made it clear that the panda may be lost cause and should look at buying a 500. Friggin hell the car isnt 4 year old yet!!!!
Doesn't appear that sensitivity is their big strength......
 
Stoneacre has sold me two different grades of semi synthetic to service our panda. Tutela branded, one 5/30 and one 10/40 neither of which match the handbook.
I questioned it and apparently its what they use.

With regards to the sticking valves it could be inlets cause by a build up on the back caused by the gunk coming around the EGR system. I think cyls 3/4 would get the majority of this.

Either way if the valve hasnt been sealing you may have a bit of damage on the valve seat too caused by combustion gasses pushing past. Grinding them in would sort this if its not too bad.

If you get the rocker cover off it might be worth trying to rotate the valves to try and break off the high points rather than pushing them in and out.

Try the oil change and the cleaner as it is definately easier to do first.


Going in circles at a dealer in frustrating as they should atleast apply some previous knowledge and basic logic. Although they do have to follow the error codes. Is the car producing alot of soot which might make the egr and valve build up problem worse.
 
he then asked me how i liked the 500 that i had been driving and made it clear that the panda may be lost cause and should look at buying a 500.
I like the 500. Tell them I'll take a 5-door one. :p
Don't put it off any longer. I have recently found them to be quite understanding and reasonable in relation to a problem I had with my Panda.
"Fiat in caring-about-their-customers shocker!" :p
With regards to the sticking valves it could be inlets cause by a build up on the back caused by the gunk coming around the EGR system. I think cyls 3/4 would get the majority of this.
That makes sense - the EGR goes round the side of the engine closest to cyls 3 & 4. Does it feed the recirculated air in at that end?
Either way if the valve hasnt been sealing you may have a bit of damage on the valve seat too caused by combustion gasses pushing past.
Didn't think of that :(
If you get the rocker cover off it might be worth trying to rotate the valves to try and break off the high points rather than pushing them in and out.
That's what I've read somewhere else, and I wanted to see if someone else metioned it.
Is the car producing alot of soot which might make the egr and valve build up problem worse.
Not really, but if it's had this problem for a while there could have been a lot of buildup I suppose.
 
I've met this guy his name is Howard can recommend him as well and no doubt not that far from where you live now..

http://www.italia.org.uk/

used to run 2 rally stilo's met him at brooklands some years ago..worth a phone call (y)

nah - he changed the wheel baring on the coupe and we all know what happened after that. Staying well clear!!!!
 
nah - he changed the wheel baring on the coupe and we all know what happened after that. Staying well clear!!!!

Jesus that was Howard..:eek: one to delete from my favourites now..:yeahthat:

utterly shock at that..:(
 
nah - he changed the wheel baring on the coupe and we all know what happened after that. Staying well clear!!!!
I know it's a bit of a trek but there is the garage in Prestatyn I mentioned, I've seen your car around these parts so can't be too much of a trek though I guess :)
 
Jesus that was Howard..:eek: one to delete from my favourites now..:yeahthat:

utterly shock at that..:(

I havent advertised which garage fitted the baring in the past, but thats my experience. I am sure he has more happy customers that not just that nearly being killed isnt really on the top of my fav lists

I know it's a bit of a trek but there is the garage in Prestatyn I mentioned, I've seen your car around these parts so can't be too much of a trek though I guess :)

We are around prestatyn, north wales etc. there is another panda like ours around these parts too. H works in chester anyway so treking to a decent garage doesnt bother either of us. I took my coupe to hull to have the manifold replace and used motormech loads in birmingham :)
 
Back
Top