Save up to 15% with Adrian Flux insurance!

General Panda 4x4 vs Defender in the snow

Currently reading:
General Panda 4x4 vs Defender in the snow

L

lambou1d

Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2021
Messages
139
Points
94
Well, we've had 6 inches of snow overnight and it's a good time to test the Panda's abilities (essential journey before you ask).

I need to feed some sheep up the road so loaded the Panda with some hay and set off up the 14% incline for the 2 miles(all up hill). Met a lad on a quad bike who said I'd never make it but I never lost traction once. I've got Hankook Winter tyres on which seems brilliant, even stopping on the downhill return.

Sheep very hungry so had to get more hay. Can get much more in the Land Rover so did the next trip in that. Lost traction numerous times and was sideways on more than one occassion. OK, so the Defender can go through deeper mud but I was astonished how good the Panda actually is.:slayer:
 
Great(-:
What tyres do you have on land rover?
Is land rover long or short wheel base?
 
The Land Rover is a 90 truck cab, Michelin - whatever LR put on as standard.
 
There’s a big difference. Because of the way the Defender 4x4 works it can very quickly and easily become one wheel drive (if anything slips - as was demonstrated to me on an off-road trading session in an older Discovery ). The LR let’s you lock the centre diff, but still, if a wheel at the front slips and at the back, it still loses traction. The Panda by comparison uses ELD to nip the brakes on any wheel that slips. This means drive can still go to three other wheels and so provide more grip.

The 4x4 Panda was not really created as a mud plugger, but to be used on Alpine roads, and so designed for snow. Snow tyres also of course make a difference. The hard, off road tyres of the LR are great in mud and on rough tracks, but become harder still (so less grippy) as they get cold. Snow tyres - as most here know- become ‘stickier’ at temperatures below 7C. This is why they *should* be called ‘winter’ tyres - that give better grip in cold winter rain as well as specifically in snow.
 
Last edited:
My first Panda, a 1987 750, (purchased in 1994) came from two previous owners. Both previous owners had worked on a local stud farm. The Panda had been used all its life carting hay bales to the horses. Not 4wd, but had apparently managed the fields well on its skinny tyres.

Downsides of its previous life included a well scratched bonnet, a 'worn' windscreen, and hay dust in every nook and cranny. Even taking off the side trim panels in the rear revealed lots of dust inside. So good luck to any future owner of the one in this thread.

The 'worn' windscreen was unusual.
The car would get covered in dust from the hay and just being on the farm. This was not washed off, but when visibility was poor, the wipers were used to clear the screen, apparently without using the wash, as that would probably just create a paste, being worse. Over its 7 years of this treatment, the area swept by the wipers had been worn, creating a surface that was no longer smooth. In rain, the wipers would move the majority of the water, but leave it in the tiny pockmarks in the glass.
As the glass is flat, the screen company offered to just reverse it, but I felt that would create demisting issues, so had it replaced. They hung it on their wall.
 
Herts Hillhopper said:
Snow tyres - as most here know- become ‘stickier’ at temperatures below 7C. This is why they *should* be called ‘winter’ tyres - that give better grip in cold winter rain as well as specifically in snow.
Click to expand...

They are called winter tyres so not sure why you’re calling them snow tyres :confused:

Snow tyres are studded, and this isn’t what the OP has fitted. TBH snow tyres aren’t really viable in the UK. Winter tyres on the other hand, I won’t not have them on my car this time of year now.
 
I’d say ice tyres are studded. Winter tyres are often marked ‘m&s’ - for ‘mud and snow’. And the Euro standard symbol for a tyre accepted for use in alpine regions carries the ‘3Pms’ marked - three peak mountain snowflake’ symbol. So no reason for confusion as they have ‘snow’ in their specification. The winter tyres on my car are described as snow tyres by the maker: https://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/car/tyres/conticrosscontact-winter
 
Last edited:
In this instance i'm guessing that weight of the panda versus the defender has a lot to do with it. The panda on winter tyres is not going to bog down or compact the snow into ice quite like the much heavier defender would.

In recent years landrover have not been fitting proper off road tyres even to the defender, mainly because people bought cars for looks and not for practicality and then got annoyed with the road noise from the knobbly off road tyres.

I remember my old classic range rover which had mud and snow tyres being particularly loud on any normal tarmac surface.
 
:)Well you're all sort of right and wrong about the OP (me). The Panda, this morning, didn't have the ELD on and didn't loose traction. I put this down to the new winter tyres and at £40 each were an absolute bargain. Anyway, the tyres on the Landy are 13 years old so that may have something to do with it also!!

So I went out again with my wife to demonstrate how good the Panda is (and feed the sheep) and showed the difference with ELD on and off. You can tell the difference. Where with ELD OFF you can hear/feel wheels slipping and the revs rising as this happens but tyres find grip and you keep going. With the ELD ON you can feel the wheels braking, revs decreasing as the engine fights the brakes and the car slows but maintains grip.
ELD OFF is way more fun.:)
 
Oh and don't worry about the next owner getting hay dust.. I'll be keeping this Panda until it dies or I do. Not a big fan of new cars; too many computers to fail etc, the Panda was about the least complicated "new" car I could find and even this has more electronics than I would like. As for the new Defender wouldn't last two days on the farm.
 
AndyRKett said:
In this instance i'm guessing that weight of the panda versus the defender has a lot to do with it. The panda on winter tyres is not going to bog down or compact the snow into ice quite like the much heavier defender would.

In recent years landrover have not been fitting proper off road tyres even to the defender, mainly because people bought cars for looks and not for practicality and then got annoyed with the road noise from the knobbly off road tyres.

I remember my old classic range rover which had mud and snow tyres being particularly loud on any normal tarmac surface.
Click to expand...
The same is true of the Panda - both the 4x4 and ‘real’ Cross models (the 4x4 ones) have also been delivered with ‘eco’ summer tyres recentlainly to give improvements to economy in the WLTP test programme.
 
lambou1d said:
Oh and don't worry about the next owner getting hay dust.. I'll be keeping this Panda until it dies or I do. Not a big fan of new cars; too many computers to fail etc, the Panda was about the least complicated "new" car I could find and even this has more electronics than I would like. As for the new Defender wouldn't last two days on the farm.
Click to expand...
Hopefully same here. Replaced in 2018 as someone drove into my six week old ‘keeper’, writing that off.
 
Herts Hillhopper said:
I’d say ice tyres are studded. Winter tyres are often marked ‘m&s’ - for ‘mud and snow’. And the Euro standard symbol for a tyre accepted for use in alpine regions carries the ‘3Pms’ marked - three peak mountain snowflake’ symbol. So no reason for confusion as they have ‘snow’ in their specification. The winter tyres on my car are described as snow tyres by the maker: https://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/car/tyres/conticrosscontact-winter
Click to expand...

M&S tyres are not winter tyres however. Winter tyres is a legislated standard where the rubber requires a certain silica content, and is 3Pms marked to advise of this, as you’ve mentioned.

Anyone can stick M&S on a tyre, as it’s not governed in the same way and means very little tbh.

Your link to your tyres doesn’t describe them as snow tyres. Even has winter in their name and not snow. Says they perform well in snow, as well as wet conditions, it doesn’t make them ‘rain’ tyres though ;) they’re still winter tyres at the end of the day (y)

5728F86D-AF06-4E5E-83CE-3AD98264134C.jpg
 
The tyres on my Panda are Hankook I*cept Evo2 and are classed as Winter with the Mountain symbol thingy. Anyway, they are very good on the snow. Been driving round the farm trying to get stuck and didn't. Hard braking downhill still brilliant with a straight line stop. Couldn't fault them.
There's plenty of youtube reviews where they compare a 2wd on winter tyres against the same car but 4x4 on normal all season tyres. The 2wd on winter tyres always out performs the 4x4 (all season tyres) on snow and ice - interesting viewing.
 
Last edited:
Most Easterly Pandas said:
Winter tyres is a legislated standard where the rubber requires a certain silica content, and is 3Pms marked to advise of this, as you’ve mentioned.. Says they perform well in snow, as well as wet conditions, it doesn’t make them ‘rain’ tyres though ;) they’re still winter tyres at the end of the day (y)

View attachment 215155
Click to expand...

...which is why I always say ‘winter tyres’. Everyone should try them - even if there’s no snow - when the temperatures drop. They last well too. Heading for 30,000 miles and still plenty tread left after all year use. ( I think the Panda’s relatively light weight helps here)
 
Last edited:
I think the confusion there is that “winter” tyres are not “snow” tyres. Winter tyres are what you put on cars for use on the road in the winter, they get better grip on cold and icy roads but they are not designed for snow.

Mud and snow tyres are a type of all season tyre designed with a very wide open knobbly tread to dig into the mud or snow. These tyres are good off road or in the soft stuff but not good on icy tarmac roads they don’t have the “sipes” in them that winter tyres have to help road grip

Studded tyres are illegal in the uk
 
Not really sure about that Andy, my tyres are Winter rather than Mud and Snow but are designed for winter Snow use with the sipes to grip the snow and ice. They have a much smaller block size than Mud and Snow tyres YES but actually do a better job in soft snow. Back to those youtube reviews.
Gar; Yes £40 a corner. I tried to get them locally but no-one could get any winter tyres so I went online. Thought I was ordering UK stock (last December) but they came from Germany with 72 hours, carriage included. Not sure that would work so well at the moment!
 
lambou1d said:
Yes £40 a corner. I tried to get them locally but no-one could get any winter tyres so I went online. Thought I was ordering UK stock (last December) but they came from Germany with 72 hours, carriage included. Not sure that would work so well at the moment!
Click to expand...

Nope. You got in just in time!
 
Herts Hillhopper said:
Sorry Andy but I have a different view of that...

The label 'Mud and snow' on a tyre has no legal standing, and there is no defined test to show if they are effective. I found 'M&S' marked on the cheap Chinese tyres on a car my daughter bought, and they would certainly have been no good in either mud or snow)

Winter tyres - those marked with the EU symbol of 'three mountain peaks and a snowflake' are specifically designed for snow (and ice, yes) and have to be used in regions that are susceptible to this. They tend not to have a knobbly tread, but instead have lots of fine cuts, or sipes, into the tread to allow the tyre to flex like a flick-book, to give grip on snow and ice. Additionally, the rubber compound is designed to behave as if softer as it gets cold, further adding to the about to grip. The main tread pattern is designed to shift slush quickly away, often by having V shaped grooves. And, in counties where their use is mandatory in winter, they must have 4mm or more tread depth.

Plenty of examples of these elements in the websites of the tyre makers (a few below). All-season tyres tend to strike a compromise between these winter elements and a summer tread type - often by having fewer sipes (such as the long, singular sipe on each tread block in the Michelin CrossClimate) as these tend to lead to less summer rain grip and speed the wear rate on dry, warm roads.

As to studded tyres being illegal - its actually a bit unclear... https://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/truck/knowhow/european-winter-regulations. Neither the Highways Code or the The Construction and Use Regulations make mention of studs (either for or against) https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/24/made

https://www.goodyear.eu/en_gb/consumer/tires/ultragrip_performance.UGPERFG1.html

https://www.michelin.co.uk/auto/tyres/michelin-alpin-6

https://www.continental-tyres.co.uk/car/tyres/wintercontact-ts-860
Click to expand...


I was merely offering a suggestion for MEP’s original reply, I wasn’t looking for a lesson. You do seem to be looking to split hairs, but I will put it in black and white again....


MUD AND SNOW TYRES ARE NOT WINTER TYRES.

“WINTER TYRES” ARE WHAT PEOPLE BUY TO DRIVE ABOUT IN THEIR CARS IN THE WINTER, SOMETIMES EVEN ON SNOW!

Generally (and this was MEP’s point) PEOPLE DO NOT CALL WINTER TYRES “SNOW TYRES” BECAUSE THEY ARE FOR A LOT MORE THAN JUST SNOW

hopefully that clears up the point MEP and myself were trying to make, neither of us needed a lesson in tyres, even in MEP’s first reply I
He made the same points you’ve made in your reply to me.

As for studded tyres being illegal I can assure you they are. Things do not have to be expressly written into legislation to state they are illegal for them to be illegal. They can simply not fit the description of what is required. In the case of studded tyres they are illegal because they damage the road surface.
It’s a lot like fitting LEDs to your car lights they are not in the legislature therefore they are illegal in their absence.

Studded tyres and LEDs can both be used “off road” which is why you can buy them in the uk still, in the case of studded tyres you’ll struggle to find places that sell them. Sometimes they might sell the bare tyres and you have to add your own studs
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

P
General Fiat Panda V Range Rover in Snow
Replies
6
Views
414
Herts Hillhopper
Herts Hillhopper
Wee Rascal
General Panda 4x4 vs Sandero Stepway Comfort 2019
Replies
8
Views
538
Wee Rascal
Wee Rascal
P
  • Question
Technical 2015 Panda Cross 4x4 spacesaver
Replies
3
Views
123
Herts Hillhopper
Herts Hillhopper
N
Technical Panda 4x4 Propshaft Compatibility ..
Replies
3
Views
314
Herts Hillhopper
Herts Hillhopper
F
General Panda Waze 4x4 v Cross 4x4
Replies
9
Views
990
Fozzybear
F
Back
Top