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Technical 0W-20 C5 oil

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Technical 0W-20 C5 oil

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murphyv310

No Fiat now unfortunately
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Hi.
The recent spec change for the Fire engine to a C5 0W-20 oil made me wonder as to why the change just prior to the demise of the fire engine.
Even though the new oil is thinner it has higher stress levels and less likely to break down under extreme load. It also has higher lubricity than the previous recommend C3 oil. I read numerous articles on oils and those two points made me decide to give it a go.
Cold it doesn't seem noticeably thinner than the 5W-40 C3. I thoroughly drained the old oil and fitted a new filter. Since I changed the oil three weeks ago I've not driven that far due to lock down but I drove to hospital one day and went a different way to give the car a run.
I'd say the engine feels more eager to rev it is just as smooth and quiet, there is no tappet noise on initial start up, there was always before for a few seconds even after two oil changes the last one done in January of this year.
One particular incline that I drive up every time I'm out with the new oil has improved the termination speed by 2mph. This remains to be seen if it is consistent, as the cross with its lower final drive ratio than the lounge, is quicker than the Lounge was.
So I'll now track the fuel consumption over the next few weeks and months. Certainly I have no qualms in using this oil. One other thing I have done was to really get it hot on my return from hospital, on the next start up a couple of days later there was no rattles or untoward noises that could have been caused by the oil draining from bearing surfaces.
 
murphyv310 said:
Hi.
The recent spec change for the Fire engine to a C5 0W-20 oil made me wonder as to why the change just prior to the demise of the fire engine.
Even though the new oil is thinner it has higher stress levels and less likely to break down under extreme load. It also has higher lubricity than the previous recommend C3 oil. I read numerous articles on oils and those two points made me decide to give it a go.
Cold it doesn't seem noticeably thinner than the 5W-40 C3. I thoroughly drained the old oil and fitted a new filter. Since I changed the oil three weeks ago I've not driven that far due to lock down but I drove to hospital one day and went a different way to give the car a run.
I'd say the engine feels more eager to rev it is just as smooth and quiet, there is no tappet noise on initial start up, there was always before for a few seconds even after two oil changes the last one done in January of this year.
One particular incline that I drive up every time I'm out with the new oil has improved the termination speed by 2mph. This remains to be seen if it is consistent, as the cross with its lower final drive ratio than the lounge, is quicker than the Lounge was.
So I'll now track the fuel consumption over the next few weeks and months. Certainly I have no qualms in using this oil. One other thing I have done was to really get it hot on my return from hospital, on the next start up a couple of days later there was no rattles or untoward noises that could have been caused by the oil draining from bearing surfaces.
Click to expand...
That's very very interesting - thanks. Our Panda (1.2 8 valve) is a second car so typically sits for a day or two between use. It's always had a wee tappet rattle on start up which ranges from "almost none at all" to a "couple of seconds" when it's stood for two or three days. I was very aware of it after it stood for over 2 weeks without starting recently (due to lockdown). Seems to me it would stand to reason that a zero cold rated oil will initially circulate faster although It's probably it's ability to not drain down so quickly which might be reducing the rattle? Maybe it's got a bit of "magnatec" technology in it? Might I ask what brand the actual oil you are using is?
 
Hi.
An update on this oil change. Fuel consumption definitely improved and running smoothness good. One potential problem is oil draining back to the sump if the car is not used for 5 days or more. On start up the oil light is slightly slower to extinguish with a noticeable rattle from the engine for about half a second. This did not occur with the C3 5w 40 oil. The filter is new from shop 4 parts. No other mods were done to the FIRE engine with the resent change of oil spec so I wonder if if this oil is really suitable for the FIRE engine. At least its good on the Fences when I get round to changing it. In the meantime I'll just turn it over for a few seconds every 2 days while I'm not using the car often.
 
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So is this oil spec retrospective? I mean Petronas do not recommend 0W20 C5 for my 5 year old 1.2 Panda. Just the same old 5W 40 C3 stuff.
 
murphyv310 said:
Hi.
An update on this oil change. Fuel consumption definitely improved and running smoothness good. One potential problem is oil draining back to the sump if the car is not used for 5 days or more. On start up the oil light is slightly slower to extinguish with a noticeable rattle from the engine for about half a second. This did not occur with the C3 5w 40 oil. The filter is new from shop 4 parts. No other mods were done to the FIRE engine with the resent change of oil spec so I wonder if if this oil is really suitable for the FIRE engine. At least its good on the Fences when I get round to changing it. In the meantime I'll just turn it over for a few seconds every 2 days while I'm not using the car often.
Click to expand...
Oil technology is amazing these days and, when combined with an engine specifically designed to use it can give surprising savings in fuel consumption and emissions. In fact, as I'm sure many of us are aware, you need to be very careful what you put in a modern engine, especially now with such highly stressed components like turbo chargers (they really "work" an oil), hydraulically actuated VVT and "stuff" like our Multi/twin air valve gear and high pressure direct injection fuel pumps.

Personally I'm very wary of putting these ultra thin oils in older engines (and, of course, the FIRE family of engines have been around for "ever" now) I'll just be sticking with my Fuchs Titan 5W/40 - approved to Fiat Spec - thank you very much!
 
Hi.
Petronas won't change the recommended spec unless advised by the manufacturer. There was no spec change for existing FIRE engined vehicles. There were no modifications done to the engine which I confirmed with Fiat. So the issues is the viscosity of the oil as it slowly drains through the filter and on start up the filter and oilways will be depleted of some oil. So there is a delay in oil supply to bearings etc, not long but enough for concern. No doubt this can still occur with the earlier spec of oil but will take longer to be noticed. Using the car every day or couple of days should never show the issue. Not sure as to if I'll drain the oil as yet as from next week I'll be using the car more often.
 
Pugglt Auld Jock said:
Oil technology is amazing these days and, when combined with an engine specifically designed to use it can give surprising savings in fuel consumption and emissions. In fact, as I'm sure many of us are aware, you need to be very careful what you put in a modern engine, especially now with such highly stressed components like turbo chargers (they really "work" an oil), hydraulically actuated VVT and "stuff" like our Multi/twin air valve gear and high pressure direct injection fuel pumps.

Personally I'm very wary of putting these ultra thin oils in older engines (and, of course, the FIRE family of engines have been around for "ever" now) I'll just be sticking with my Fuchs Titan 5W/40 - approved to Fiat Spec - thank you very much!
Click to expand...


Fair enough but tell me why on earth Fiat changed the spec? Did they know the Fire engine was about to be stopped and don't now care if it causes wear issues? The engines will be years old and the cars well out of warranty before these effects cause an issue.
 
murphyv310 said:
Fair enough but tell me why on earth Fiat changed the spec? Did they know the Fire engine was about to be stopped and don't now care if it causes wear issues? The engines will be years old and the cars well out of warranty before these effects cause an issue.
Click to expand...
To gain 2-3 grams per KM reduction on co2 output for the emissions Tests no doubt
 
You say a proper synthetic oil, well that’s not strictly true, the base is still crude oil although it’s changed by chemists. Modern oil HAS come a long way but there have been court cases on wording on what you can you call fully synthetic in the past.
 
jimboy said:
You say a proper synthetic oil, well that’s not strictly true, the base is still crude oil although it’s changed by chemists. Modern oil HAS come a long way but there have been court cases on wording on what you can you call fully synthetic in the past.
Click to expand...
Aye Jim, I had this conversation with Opie when I was first considering Fuchs oils for "The Family Fleet" I liked a lot of what my research revealed but suddenly noticed that their containers did not specifically list the contents as "synthetic" which other manufacturer's product prominently displayed. Then I noticed that Opie described it as Synthetic on their site! When I enquired I was told it's because the law in Germany is very specific in this regard so they can't describe it as synthetic even though it probably exceeds many products described elsewhere as being synthetic. I emailed Fuchs UK and got very much the same answer. Interesting don't you think?

Been using Fuchs now for several years with good results.
 
Indeed Jock. I’ve been interested in this subject from long ago. I’m going to do everyone a favour and not bore you with details. It’s quite fascinating if you go digging. Court cases were issued for basically lying simple. Do you remember Pro long for instance, an additive claiming you could add this stuff to the oil run it for a while, drain it then run the car again without damage blah blah crap. Slick 50 is another con. Some oil companies were claiming things that their magic oil could do, more crap. I did promise, I’ll stop now.:)
 
Hi.
For many many years I bought the cheapest oil and doubled the oil changes.

Never ever did I have any issues whatsoever and others that clocked up similar mileages to me had engine wear issues that I didn't.

When Mobil 1 came out I decided to the change to it after all the hype. At the time I had a Skoda 120LSE that had been 100% just like all the previous Skoda's I had. After three or four months I had a leaking exhaust valve. It transpired that as Skoda didn't use pressed in guides, using Mobil 1 oil on some engines can cause wear on machined cast iron heads (Skoda used alloy blocks and cast iron heads). The wear caused the valve to tip slightly and a poor seal causing it to burn. I got the head repaired with pressed in guides but I reverted to my cheapo oil and double the changes.


In fact I use Technolube which is a Tetrosyl oil (5W-40 C3) and from now on that's what I'll be sticking with.


The Moral is expensive oils are not always worth it and a specced cheap oil is as good and if you change it more often far far better than the dear stuff in for a long time.
 
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jimboy said:
Indeed Jock. I’ve been interested in this subject from long ago. I’m going to do everyone a favour and not bore you with details. It’s quite fascinating if you go digging. Court cases were issued for basically lying simple. Do you remember Pro long for instance, an additive claiming you could add this stuff to the oil run it for a while, drain it then run the car again without damage blah blah crap. Slick 50 is another con. Some oil companies were claiming things that their magic oil could do, more crap. I did promise, I’ll stop now.:)
Click to expand...
Oh Jim, don't get me started on oil additives! I'll just say, spend your money on a decent oil in the first place - and that doesn't necessarily mean the most expensive (hence my liking for a drop of the Fuchs "stuff")
 
I’ve kind of been harping on for years about what you have discovered Murphy. The companies who spend vast amounts on advertising haven’t received good press at times but it’s engrained in some petrolheads minds that their chosen oil is the best. I,m certainly not trying to change everyone’s mind. I’m certainly no expert but I know what I’ve seen, found out over the years.
 
Pugglt Auld Jock said:
Aye Jim, I had this conversation with Opie when I was first considering Fuchs oils for "The Family Fleet" I liked a lot of what my research revealed but suddenly noticed that their containers did not specifically list the contents as "synthetic" which other manufacturer's product prominently displayed. Then I noticed that Opie described it as Synthetic on their site! When I enquired I was told it's because the law in Germany is very specific in this regard so they can't describe it as synthetic even though it probably exceeds many products described elsewhere as being synthetic. I emailed Fuchs UK and got very much the same answer. Interesting don't you think?

Been using Fuchs now for several years with good results.
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with the Fuchs stuff. And they are correct about the law against describing severely hydrocracked blends as "fully synthetic" in Germany. Fuchs probably thought it best to drop the word synthetic completely and just promote their XTL technology.

Ravenol oil is also German but is legitimately described as "Volsynthetiches" as it is PAO synthetic based.
 
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