General Thinking of buying a Panda CNG 0.9

[niktsol1978]

Hello everyone. I would like to share a thought of myself , for buying a new Panda CNG, with the 0,9 twinair engine.

I performed a test drive and i must say that i was impressed with the the way it is moving around the streets. the way it pulls although it is only 0,9 cc engine. The only thing i mentioned is that in low rpm it sounds a little bit noisy. But after 2500 rpms it sounds much better.

This vehicle will be my primary vehicle, for city driving mostly but i wouldn't say no for taking long or short trips.

I would like to ask you about the reliability of these engines. Do these engines last for long? Do you have any issues or something? Are you happy with these vehicles in general? Is it comfortable in long-short trips?


From my own search i think that Panda is a great value for money vehicle, and very economical, especially the CNG versions. Before i proceed to purchase, i would like your opinions.

Thank you in advance!!

 

[eshroom]

It's a very highly strung engine. If looked after properly and serviced regularly it seems to do ok. I'd be worried about LPG though, the engine is already stretched.

 

[niktsol1978]

The specific engine is CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) not LPG. In CNG mode it produces 80hp while turning in gasoline mode produces 85hp. Does anyone has this version, for a long time? FIAT offers a 5 year warranty for start, probably with the option for more years

 

[Goudrons]

CNG is compressed methane.
LPG is compressed Butane and Propane.

Neither is that popular here in the UK, though LPG is more widely available than CNG.

Fiat didn't offer either here, so it would be hard to tell if you if the CNG system is reliable, though LPG cars tend to suffer if they aren't serviced properly.

The 0.9cc Twinair is a bit of an odd ball engine and not everyone gets on with it.
It's only 2 cylinders with Fiats Multiair unit controlling the intake valves, the 85hp version comes with a small turbo, believe it or not there's a non turbo 60hp available in some markets.

It's got a little bit of usable torque low in the rpm range, peak torque methinks is only 1900rpm, but the engine does spin quite freely so it can take a lot of gear changes and concentration to keep it in the sweet spot, it does seem odd to drive around Put Putting along at low rpm in a higher gear.

Drive it hard and it does sound quite harsh and it'll slam into the rev limiter in the blink of an eye.

It rarely gets anywhere near claimed mpg, if fact it's a struggle to match what the 4 cylinder easily returns.
I'm not sure how big the gas tank is, but I expect the gas tank will be quite small and you might be filling it up quite often.

There are a few more items of concern over the trusty old 4 cylinder 1.2 FIRE engine that are worth pointing out.

The Multiair unit hasn't been totally reliable.
Not sure why so many have failed, but the system uses the engine oil as a variable "link" in the inlet valve actuation to alter the valves timings, so it's totally reliant on the right level and spec of engine oil.

Turbo wastegate shafts have been known to suffer a lot of wear/play.

The flywheel is a dual mass item and they in general seem to give trouble over time, they all tend to wear out and need replacing when the clutch plate does.

There has been trouble getting some cars through our emissions test.
I've only ever taken one for a test once and had no trouble, but others have had trouble with the readings, methinks it's a issue with the exhaust/cat that causes a issue with the gases at the tail pipe. I read there might be a drain hole in the exhaust somewhere than screws up the Lambda calculation, ie it detects too much unburnt oxygen.

 

[niktsol1978]

CNG is compressed methane.
LPG is compressed Butane and Propane.

Neither is that popular here in the UK, though LPG is more widely available than CNG.

Fiat didn't offer either here, so it would be hard to tell if you if the CNG system is reliable, though LPG cars tend to suffer if they aren't serviced properly.

The 0.9cc Twinair is a bit of an odd ball engine and not everyone gets on with it.
It's only 2 cylinders with Fiats Multiair unit controlling the intake valves, the 85hp version comes with a small turbo, believe it or not there's a non turbo 60hp available in some markets.

It's got a little bit of usable torque low in the rpm range, peak torque methinks is only 1900rpm, but the engine does spin quite freely so it can take a lot of gear changes and concentration to keep it in the sweet spot, it does seem odd to drive around Put Putting along at low rpm in a higher gear.

Drive it hard and it does sound quite harsh and it'll slam into the rev limiter in the blink of an eye.

It rarely gets anywhere near claimed mpg, if fact it's a struggle to match what the 4 cylinder easily returns.
I'm not sure how big the gas tank is, but I expect the gas tank will be quite small and you might be filling it up quite often.

There are a few more items of concern over the trusty old 4 cylinder 1.2 FIRE engine that are worth pointing out.

The Multiair unit hasn't been totally reliable.
Not sure why so many have failed, but the system uses the engine oil as a variable "link" in the inlet valve actuation to alter the valves timings, so it's totally reliant on the right level and spec of engine oil.

Turbo wastegate shafts have been known to suffer a lot of wear/play.

The flywheel is a dual mass item and they in general seem to give trouble over time, they all tend to wear out and need replacing when the clutch plate does.

There has been trouble getting some cars through our emissions test.
I've only ever taken one for a test once and had no trouble, but others have had trouble with the readings, methinks it's a issue with the exhaust/cat that causes a issue with the gases at the tail pipe. I read there might be a drain hole in the exhaust somewhere than screws up the Lambda calculation, ie it detects too much unburnt oxygen.

You made me think a lot of issues. I am looking for a CNG vehicle because, here, in my country is the cheapest way to move. The gasoline tank has 35 liters capacity, quite big, while other companies producing cng/gasoline versions had much more smaller (9 to 11 liters) I might take a look of the previous version with 1,2 4 cylinder engine. Luckily, there is one dealer that sells some of these.

Thanks for your detailed reply!!

 

[Goudrons]

You made me think a lot of issues. I am looking for a CNG vehicle because, here, in my country is the cheapest way to move. The gasoline tank has 35 liters capacity, quite big, while other companies producing cng/gasoline versions had much more smaller (9 to 11 liters) I might take a look of the previous version with 1,2 4 cylinder engine. Luckily, there is one dealer that sells some of these.

Thanks for your detailed reply!!

I wouldn't let it put you off.
Their issues are few and far between.

Not everyone with one suffers these problems, just that some have.
No car is without it's faults, except perhaps my Dacia

I believe Fiat has sold over 300,000 CNG Panda's, so they can't be all that bad.

I've read you're right, it's still a normal 35 litre petrol tank with a 12kg gas tank.
We heard on here recently you can't tow with a gas powered car, if that is in your plans then perhaps a CNG isn't for you.

It's reported it'll cover 380 km on that gas though I suspect it'll be slightly less efficient on gas than petrol and if the WLTP to real world mpg discrepancy that the normally powered Twinair suffers is similar with the CNG, I think it will probably be nearer to 2/3rd that at around 250km.

I guess that's still not too bad if the gas is still around 85 cents a kilo in Greece? I visit Greece quite regularly and petrol has shot up in price and is quite expensive, I think I was paying 1.70e a litre last month.

I seem to remember diesel was cheaper by around 15 - 20 cent a litre, would that not be a better alternative? Have the government plans to drive diesels off the road like here in the UK?

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

...I seem to remember diesel was cheaper by around 15 - 20 cent a litre, would that not be a better alternative? Have the government plans to drive diesels off the road like here in the UK?

No Panda diesels made since May 2018 - sooo poor in the WLTP testing, the engine was dropped from all Panda and all 500 models, worldwide. [EDIT: I have since spotted the the Greek Fiat website does still list the Panda with Multijet diesel engine -- but it not listed in UK, Netherlands, France, Italy, Germany, Austria...] Its not a tax thing (no more tax to buy a new diesel car than a petrol in UK, and - for now - only pre-Euro6 engined vehicles will see any restrictions on use or increases in taxation), but a human health thing – although diesel engines have lower carbon emissions than petrol (still), even in Euro6 guise the NOx levels are too high in many 'real world driving' testing situations.

In the UK, the TwinAir was also dropped from all 500s and all PAndas except the 4x4 version for the same reason - poor WLTP test results.

In some other parts of Europe, the TwinAir can still be selected in the non-4x4 Panda, but only as a CNG/petrol or LPG/petrol dual fuel car, so far as I can see.

 

[Goudrons]

I wasn't particularly thinking of a Panda diesel, just would a diesel in general be cheaper.

Diesel is cheaper than petrol to start with out in Greece, it's only 50 cent or so a litre more than CNG, plus you obviously get more miles per gallon out of the stuff than petrol and CNG.

Fuel for fuel, it might be the cheapest way of getting around.

 

[perelaar]

I'm driving the 0,9 Panda Cross (not a CNG) and love it dearly. Done about 20000km now in the first year, never had any issue at all. Short drives, long drives, (very) fast drives in Germany, huge traffic jams in Brussels, offroad in mud, playing in the snow - never an issue.

Don't be put off by the CNG: the tank is cleverly positioned under the car and is far bigger than you think - 72l according to the marketing. To accommodate the tank the CNG Panda has about the same ground clearance as the 4x4, and uses the same rear axle design. See here for an infographic (site in Dutch, but picture info is in English).

 

[niktsol1978]

I wouldn't let it put you off.
Their issues are few and far between.

Not everyone with one suffers these problems, just that some have.
No car is without it's faults, except perhaps my Dacia

I believe Fiat has sold over 300,000 CNG Panda's, so they can't be all that bad.

I've read you're right, it's still a normal 35 litre petrol tank with a 12kg gas tank.
We heard on here recently you can't tow with a gas powered car, if that is in your plans then perhaps a CNG isn't for you.

It's reported it'll cover 380 km on that gas though I suspect it'll be slightly less efficient on gas than petrol and if the WLTP to real world mpg discrepancy that the normally powered Twinair suffers is similar with the CNG, I think it will probably be nearer to 2/3rd that at around 250km.

I guess that's still not too bad if the gas is still around 85 cents a kilo in Greece? I visit Greece quite regularly and petrol has shot up in price and is quite expensive, I think I was paying 1.70e a litre last month.

I seem to remember diesel was cheaper by around 15 - 20 cent a litre, would that not be a better alternative? Have the government plans to drive diesels off the road like here in the UK?

Thanks for your reply. I'm so happy that you've visited my country. I hope you enjoyed your visit.

As far it concerns the diesel, i've read that many automakers have stopped producing diesel engines and turn to alternative fuel (such as cng, lpg, hydrogen-in U.S.A. mostly, hev or phev. Unfortunately the unleaded gasoline price starts from 1,5 Euros (95 octane) per litre to 1,7-1,8 Euros (100 octane) per litre. Diesel is indeed cheaper, 1,2 to 1,3 Euros per litre.

I do a 40 km commute to my job, and i end up to prefer CNG because the commute cost shall be 10 Euros per week while in gasoline would be 20 something and diesel 15. The gap is increased for CNG in monthly basis. (CNG cost is 0,889 Euros per kilo)

What you mentinon about towing the car, i've never heard it before. What's the issue if i tow it with engine shut off and neutral?

I used to drive vehicles with engines 2.0 litres or more. My current vehicle is a 1998 BMW 520i E39 with 240.000 kilometres on the odometer. Runs smoothly but the annual tax is 615 Euros, because of the engine capacity. There are rumours in which the annual tax for the older vehicles will be increased for 2021 . This car had no issues at all. I own it since2006.

To be honest i am afraid of these "new" technologies, i.e. many horsepower from little turbocharged engines. That's why i am asking this kind of information.

 

[niktsol1978]

No Panda diesels made since May 2018 - sooo poor in the WLTP testing, the engine was dropped from all Panda and all 500 models, worldwide. [EDIT: I have since spotted the the Greek Fiat website does still list the Panda with Multijet diesel engine -- but it not listed in UK, Netherlands, France, Italy, Germany, Austria...] Its not a tax thing (no more tax to buy a new diesel car than a petrol in UK, and - for now - only pre-Euro6 engined vehicles will see any restrictions on use or increases in taxation), but a human health thing – although diesel engines have lower carbon emissions than petrol (still), even in Euro6 guise the NOx levels are too high in many 'real world driving' testing situations.

In the UK, the TwinAir was also dropped from all 500s and all PAndas except the 4x4 version for the same reason - poor WLTP test results.

In some other parts of Europe, the TwinAir can still be selected in the non-4x4 Panda, but only as a CNG/petrol or LPG/petrol dual fuel car, so far as I can see.

Yes, i figured out myself about WLTP and diesel engines. At least the 0,9 TwinAir is Euro 6,2 compliant, as i was informed from the dealership.

 

[niktsol1978]

I'm driving the 0,9 Panda Cross (not a CNG) and love it dearly. Done about 20000km now in the first year, never had any issue at all. Short drives, long drives, (very) fast drives in Germany, huge traffic jams in Brussels, offroad in mud, playing in the snow - never an issue.

Don't be put off by the CNG: the tank is cleverly positioned under the car and is far bigger than you think - 72l according to the marketing. To accommodate the tank the CNG Panda has about the same ground clearance as the 4x4, and uses the same rear axle design. See here for an infographic (site in Dutch, but picture info is in English).

I've noticed where the CNG tank is located. That's why FIAT uses the 4X4 suspension in order the CNG tank to be not closed to the road.


Tell me something.Is it comfortable on long distance driving? What is the fuel consumption you achieve in city-highway? When i test-drove it, i realized some noise below the 2500 rpm. Above 2500 rpm was running with less noise. I was noticed that in CNG mode the output is 80hp, 5 less when it is in petrol mode.

 

[Goudrons]

You cannot tow a trailer, not cannot tow the car.
The handbook states the car isn't suitable for a towbar.

It will never be as comfortable as your BMW and only you will be able to tell if it's comfortable enough for your commute.

I found the 2014 Panda 4x4 Twinair I used to own a bit tiring after 3 to 4 hours behind the wheel, but everyone is different.
I found the driving position a bit like sitting on a dining chair.

Fuel economy is a bit of a mixed bag.
It can reach some impressive figures on a relaxed cruise at steady speeds with some concentration, but the trouble is like a lot of small engined turbo cars, push it a bit and it all dives pretty terribly.

As Fiat have sold quite a lot of CNG Pandas there might be some real life posted on sites like Fuelly (it's an American site so Gas = Petrol).

Fiat reckon it'll do something like 380km on the 12kg of CNG and 1147 kms combined.

767 kms (476 miles) on 35 litres of petrol sounds optimistic.
Have a look at this https://www.gocar.gr/test-drives/test/26486,DOKIMH_Fiat_Panda_0_9_CNG.html
They seem to suggest 260km on gas and 750km combined, sounds a bit more realistic to me.

CNG and LPG aren't as calorific as petrol, so doesn't get as much power out of a like for like "bang" as it would petrol, which is why it's quoted as producing less HP on CNG than petrol, you would likely use slightly more per km on CNG than petrol as well, but CNG is a lot cheaper.

I see Fiat.GR have an offer on the CNG Panda, 11,990 euros (£10,112).
My Greek is very limited, so I don't know what sort of spec you get with that, but it looks UK's mid spec Easy trim to me.

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

You cannot tow a trailer, not cannot tow the car.
The handbook states the car isn't suitable.

(This is a bit academic as I don’t think the OP wants to tow anything... but...) The U.K. handbook shows *LPG* cars can’t tow, because the tank goes in place if the spare wheel. With CNG, the tanks are placed along the underside of the passenger compartment- hence using the 4x4 suspension to raise the body height. (See here - although think this is older model shown http://details-of-cars.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Fiat-panda-1.2-natural-power-1.jpg ). That may not preclude fitting a towbar. However, latest handbooks show even the regular petrol-only 1.2 Panda can’t be used for towing - so I think something else is at play here - such as power to weight ratio of the less powerful Pandas.

 

[Goudrons]

No, the handbook actually states "0.9 Twinair Turbo Natural Power" cannot tow. It's a different model to the 70hp LPG car that also cannot tow.

View attachment 204558

 

[Herts Hillhopper]

No, the handbook actually states "0.9 Twinair Turbo Natural Power" cannot tow. It's a different model to the 70hp LPG car that also cannot tow.

That's what comes from me trying to reply 'from memory', and thinking the UK handbook referred to LPG, not CNG versions. (Odd that it refers to either, since so far as I know, neither was ever sold here?).

 

[Goudrons]

The books are general model handbooks and just translated into whatever language they need.

Which is far better than a 12 inch thick book with every language in it!

 

[eshroom]

Since you are in Greece, let me tell you about my experience with Greek Fiat (in Corfu) this month.

My 0.9l twinair (non-CNG) had some worrying rattling. My mechanic, who is very good and a friend, checked everything you would normally check and couldn't find it. He then sent me to fiat.

I paid them 50 euros to "diagnose" the problem. They wanted over 400 euros to replace the engine mounts, but with no guarantee it would fix the problem. My mechanic already checked these and said they were fine.

So I took it back to my mechanic and bought a DMF and new clutch, and one engine mount (one had some signs of wear, so we replaced it anyway). It turns out the issue was the DMF (a weak point in this car), and the clutch was ruined at the same time. Fiat had told me 100% it wasn't the DMF (even though they said they have only sold one other twinair on Corfu, so don't have much experience).

Why the big problems? This is a 2 cylinder engine and is unique and rare, very rare in Greece, no one knows how to work it (apparently not Fiat themselves). As you are in Greece I would advise against getting the Twinair in CNG or petrol. Not least because of the poor fuel economy. Find something small mechanics can work on, or once the warranty expires, you will have problems.

 

[The Panda Nut]

Make sure they actually supply it with the correct engine and not a diesel....

 

[eshroom]

Make sure they actually supply it with the correct engine and not a diesel....

I supplied the part as clutches were available in Greece, but no DMF's.

Italy had them, but wouldn't deliver to Greece, in the end I had to get everything sent from the UK. Nightmare.