Is it worth swapping a standard base spec 1.2 to upgrade to a petrol 4x4?
I have no experience of the twin air so i dont know if id like it!

I have 3 Pandas. TA 4x4 and 2 1.2's.

My last 4x4 TA did 35mpg MAX.

The 2019 version does 37-53mmpg and the 1.2's both do 48+ th 312 can do 64 on a long run and the 169 58mpg

The 4x4 has beefed up suspension and rides very well indeed. It may (I hope) cope with our appalling roads better.

4x4 routine maintenace is higher and some jobs are an outrage and difficult to do. Insurance is more too.

Tyre wear is so slight you will need to change before they wear out of tread.

The twin air is much faster and takes off at speeds the 1.2 starts to run out of steam.

4x4 runs in 4x2 mode most of the time switches seamlessly and instantly to 4x4 if wheels start to slip under 30mph. Above this speed 4x4 switches off. But when the going gets impossible a 4x4 will really go anywhere!! Fantastic.

The 4x4 is based on the top spec lounge so is a little better equipped, and the cross gets a couple of big ticket extras on top.

Unless you really need it 4x2 is probably best with hand on heart. When the beast from the east hits though there is no competition at all.

Twin air is odd and takes a while to acclimatise to, but its great fun and will show a clean pair of heals to a lot of things you might not expect.

TA is said to depreciate less???

I would be tempted if buying new or nearly new to look for a TA lounge 4x2 and a couple of spare wheels with snow tyres for winter.

They are all good and seem reliable I love the sense of security of the 4x4 and the extra view of the road is good too.

Good luck

The Panda Nut said:

...The 4x4 has beefed up suspension and rides very well indeed. It may (I hope) cope with our appalling roads too...

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I’ve seen others say this too, but it is not the case. The main suspension parts (by which I mean the wishbones and mounts at various points) are identical to the 2WD car. The springs and shocks are longer but I think that’s about it. Yes, it’s more comfortable and yes you get more ground clearance. But don’t be fooled into thinking it’s more robust, as that will become expensive

I have been seriously impressed by the grip afforded by my 4x2 with full winter tyres. I'm pretty sure that it will be capable of handling all but the very worst of our winter weather.

However, the extra ground clearance of the 4x4 would make it even better.

And, of course, when things get really bad the 4wd will probably be unstoppable.

But, where cost is an issue, the standard Panda on winter tyres is not a bad compromise. I'm very happy with mine and feel that the £3k cost saving over the 4x4 is justified. But it would still be nice to have a 4x4

The City Cross has traction control, in other words it brakes the spinning wheel so the other front wheel will give some drive. My City Cross did well recently when I had no option of driving on very muddy grass.

murphyv310 said:

The City Cross has traction control, in other words it brakes the spinning wheel so the other front wheel will give some drive. My City Cross did well recently when I had no option of driving on very muddy grass.

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Sorry to say, the City Cross ‘only’ has the same ‘traction control’ as other Pandas, that (as part of the ESC system) cuts engine power if it senses a loss of grip on a road - such as pulling out too fast or cornering too quickly. What it does not have is the ‘Traction Plus’ function offered in the now defunct ‘Trekking’ version - which would work as you describe on snow or wet grass and apply the brake to a spinning wheel, and which was turned on by pressing the T+ button alongside the ‘eco’ button.

Even so, I've read that the ability to turn off the traction control in the standard Panda can still be of benefit in tricky conditions, especially with decent tyres fitted. Hopefully I'll be able to test this out for myself over the coming months just to see how effective that is. I guess that the theory is to maintain full power to any front wheel that has grip until the other one finds some grip and propels you forward?

I had a 4x4 TA along with a couple of 4x2 Pandas for almost 4 years.
I did actually use mine off road quite a bit.

The 4x4 off road is pretty much peerless and can make some expensive off roaders look out of their depth, there's just nothing else like it on the market.
The 4x4 system works well to sort out grip, it's so light it rarely digs in or cause issues with weight transfer, particularly in the snow and ice.

The engine has just enough torque to crawl out of some really slippy situations on little throttle, first gear is pretty low so that helps there.

Mine was a standard bodied 4x4 not a Cross and the front bumpers "chin" was a bit limiting because it's quite low (better in the Cross), there's even (was) a splitter type flap under there.
It became a real problem on rutted farm tracks or dips in the ground.

Out on the road everyday is where I struggled with mine, particularly commuting around town or long trips.

The low first gear became a real pain in stop start traffic, it's like 1/2 a gear really and as the engine spins up so quick you can slam into the rev limiter really easy at pretty low speeds from the lights, it can wear pretty thin trying to pull away and keep up with the traffic.

If you try to bypass it and pull away in second you have to abuse the clutch a fair bit.

Out on the motorway it was a lot noisier than the 1.2 4x2's.
Quite a lot NVH transmits through the car from the wheels and the engine can make a bit of a din at national limits.

Handling was pretty good for a jacked up small car (far better than my current Stepway), the 4x2 is better but it reminded me of how the older normal 169 Panda handled, a bit of lean but nothing to pull the car off track (unless you're really silly).

I found it far less comfortable though, not sure why but it did seem the seats were more dining chairish than either 4x2's.
I tried jacking the front of the drivers seat up to tilt it back a bit, but no luck.
2 hours in it and I really felt shattered, I can manage around 4 hours in the 4x2s without feeling the same.

I would say if you're floating around locally and plan on some regular off road trips on farm tracks, in and out of muddy fields etc, it's perfect, nothing will beat it for the price.

As an everyday option in case the weather turns, I would say just buy a spare set of wheels and some winter tyres, the 4x4 might be just too much of a compromise particularly if you're going to spend hours at a time in it, slogging through city traffic.

I don't really want to put it down as it did me well, it's just for me it was too compromised Monday to Saturday just to make my Sunday trips easier.

And yes, come trade in time it did me proud, but then it was snowy and icy at the time and no the Stepway isn't much better, perhaps a little better on the road everyday and it does seem to cruise a speed a little better.

Goudrons said:

...Mine was a standard bodied 4x4 not a Cross and the front bumpers "chin" was a bit limiting because it's quite low (better in the Cross), there's even (was) a splitter type flap under ...

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A bit like the ‘beefed suspension’, it is a myth that the Cross bumper gives more clearance. It IS a different shape (so the front edge doesn’t catch), but at the lowest (back) edge of the bumper it is exactly the same as the ‘normal’ 4x4 bumper and mounts to the same holes in the subframe. The Cross has the same rubber strip on the bottom of the bumper too (but Fiat photoshop this out on publicity photos). It’s good that catches as it gives a little warning that you’re getting close to the ground. The Cross is 6mm higher off the ground than the regular 4x4 (which is 50mm higher than 2WD drive Pandas) butvthat 6mm is from the tyres being slightly taller.

Can get 4 Avon Winter tyres, just under £47 each fitted. 4 Goodyear Ultragrip 9's like on my TA 4x4 in your exact size 175/65 14 82T just under £57.50 which is what I'd go for. 4x4 great on a rutted track near me and set of traffic lights on a slope in adjoining county where grew up. And standing water in the dark. But would happily use a 1.2 in summer.

Herts Hillhopper said:

Sorry to say, the City Cross ‘only’ has the same ‘traction control’ as other Pandas, that (as part of the ESC system) cuts engine power if it senses a loss of grip on a road - such as pulling out too fast or cornering too quickly. What it does not have is the ‘Traction Plus’ function offered in the now defunct ‘Trekking’ version - which would work as you describe on snow or wet grass and apply the brake to a spinning wheel, and which was turned on by pressing the T+ button alongside the ‘eco’ button.

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Misinformation from the dealer then
Thanks for the correct info.
In other words the car naturally is very good without gizmos

murphyv310 said:

Misinformation from the dealer then ...

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Maybe not wrong from the dealer. The Panda (and most cars these days) has 'ASR' (anti slip regulation) as part of the ESC (electronic stability control) system. The handbook describes that as working the way I said - reducing engine power if both wheels are loosing grip. But (news to me), it also says "if slipping involves [only] one of the driving wheels, it intervenes automatically braking the wheel that is slipping"... so it was me that was wrong! That does lead me to question what 'Traction Plus" does differently, as that 'extra' is still included with the 'Trekking" versions of the 500L and Qubo - and the Panda handbook still refers to it... maybe it does "the same but more of it"?
(extracts from the handbook that describe each system, below)

I was going to have a play about with the ASR button this morning as it was -6C when I left the house. The main road had been salted but not where I was heading for. Hard to say if there was ice below the hard frost covering the untreated road and car park but I didn't feel any lack of traction from my winter tyres, so didn't think that I would learn anything. The car park was almost empty but I reckoned that my relative inexperience could still lead to a bump if I started to get cocky

Herts Hillhopper said:

I’ve seen others say this too, but it is not the case. The main suspension parts (by which I mean the wishbones and mounts at various points) are identical to the 2WD car. The springs and shocks are longer but I think that’s about it. Yes, it’s more comfortable and yes you get more ground clearance. But don’t be fooled into thinking it’s more robust, as that will become expensive

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Yes in principle I agree with what you say. But there is a strengthened body frame and the rear end is very different and made to do the job. I too would recommend treating the thing with respect as a lot of the parts are the same as a standard car. But its clear from driving it back to back with the 2wd version that its more capable and the ride much more resilient which makes coping with disintegrating Norfolk roads less stressful. While I know it can do things that are out of the ordinary common sense must rule how fast you go and where you draw the line. As a car that holds the record for the London to Capetown jaunt its clear that its fundamentally tough.

Axis said:

I was going to have a play about with the ASR button this morning as it was -6C when I left the house. The main road had been salted but not where I was heading for. Hard to say if there was ice below the hard frost covering the untreated road and car park but I didn't feel any lack of traction from my winter tyres, so didn't think that I would learn anything. The car park was almost empty but I reckoned that my relative inexperience could still lead to a bump if I started to get cocky

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The 4x4 system is so good the ELD is only needed if going for pretty extreme conditions which I feel are beyond what you will find on road. I told a new owner today I would give him £10 if he ever gets stuck!

Herts Hillhopper said:

Maybe not wrong from the dealer. The Panda (and most cars these days) has 'ASR' (anti slip regulation) as part of the ESC (electronic stability control) system. The handbook describes that as working the way I said - reducing engine power if both wheels are loosing grip. But (news to me), it also says "if slipping involves [only] one of the driving wheels, it intervenes automatically braking the wheel that is slipping"... so it was me that was wrong! That does lead me to question what 'Traction Plus" does differently, as that 'extra' is still included with the 'Trekking" versions of the 500L and Qubo - and the Panda handbook still refers to it... maybe it does "the same but more of it"?
(extracts from the handbook that describe each system, below)

Click to expand...

Traction Plus is basically the ELD but just on the one axle, so the ABS r.educes / stops wheel slip on one wheel. If Fiat explained better how both systems worked I could see the trekking being a great option for a lot pf people and more than adequate for the job in nearly all on road conditions.

The 4x4 like the HDC knob is just one upmanship for those who dont venture off road. I may only have 85HP in my 90HP Waze but I have got the HDC knob and on steep slopes in multi storey car parks it does work well. Its a shame but I don't believe the Panda Trekking is still available new.

I also know that if I need to tackle scree slopes when driving in the Andes or Himalayas on my way to Tesco........ I will still be safe if not actually in control.

murphyv310 said:

Misinformation from the dealer then
Thanks for the correct info.
In other words the car naturally is very good without gizmos

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Yes indeed its all due to a web site error.....

The Panda Nut said:

The 4x4 like the HDC knob is just one upmanship for those who dont venture off road. I may only have 85HP in my 90HP Waze but I have got the HDC knob and on steep slopes in multi storey car parks it does work well. Its a shame but I don't believe the Panda Trekking is still available new.

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Hill descent shouldn’t be necessary (and shouldn’t be used) on any tarmac surface. Normal brakes and engine braking from that low 1st gear more than enough there. HDC is to be used off road where, on a loose surface, the car might slide on the loose or slippery stuff if a wheel locks. HDC is an extension to ABS in the same way that ELD/T+ are to the anti-wheel-spin system.

On my MJ 4x4 the degree of engine braking is extraordinary and I can’t see anywhere I’d actually need to have HDC on top of that

The Panda Nut said:

Yes in principle I agree with what you say. But there is a strengthened body frame and the rear end is very different..,.

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Sorry to disagree (again ) but I don’t believe there’s anything different about the body either, and apart from the undertray nothing is strengthened. The rear suspension is (on the 312 Panda) is the same as the 2WD version too, but with revised rear hub carriers to allow the driveshafts to pass through. (it *was* very different on the older 169 model but they dropped that on the newer model to save weight and cost.)

Whatever -they are terrific little Terriers - I’m on my fourth (a 169 and then three 312s - the most recent a replacement for one that was written off when hit from behind). The roads of Hertfordshire are sometimes worse than Norfolk (trust me - I’m a regular visitor) and I too love the way the holes are smoothly traversed. Off-road it is extraordinary, and brilliant in snow too.

Herts Hillhopper said:

Sorry to disagree (again ) but I don’t believe there’s anything different about the body either, and apart from the undertray nothing is strengthened. The rear suspension is (on the 312 Panda) is the same as the 2WD version too, but with revised rear hub carriers to allow the driveshafts to pass through. (it *was* very different on the older 169 model but they dropped that on the newer model to save weight and cost.)

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If you look under the 4x4 there are two huge reinforcements. Round in section, and revised chassis too to accomodate them. Shoukd you try for example to fit a 4x2 towbar to the 4x4 you will be disappointed, as it will not fit. The rear dampers are mounted differently and the moutings are also stronger.
Having and driving both cars regularly as well as spending too much time underneath fitting towbars, I can assure you they are somewhat different. No dispute regarding the generally light weight nature of some components and need to not get carried away though.