Technical 4x4 judder (not from engine bay) on engine braking 2nd gear

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Technical 4x4 judder (not from engine bay) on engine braking 2nd gear

eshroom

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As the title suggests. Judder on engine braking in 2nd gear, doesn't appear to be from the engine bay. Mechanic left scratching his head on this one. There's a language barrier, but he says last thing left to check is some barings, after that he gives up.

Anyone have any idea what could be causing this?
 
It's not the prop-shaft unfortunately. My mechanic has given up and suggested I take it to the stealers. :confused:
 
So having driven the car, the vibrations is felt through the clutch and the gearstick (gearstick vibrates noisily and quite intensely) under accelerations and deceleration at high revs, particularly in first and second.

Stealers want to start with replacing mounts at 420 euros and work back from there. I'm not keen on an expensive expedition as I've been through one before with my BMW without the problem being found.

Do these symptoms sound familiar to anyone and is 420 to replace the engine mounts reasonable?
 
Have a look at the engine mounts and see if you notice anything that needs tightening, or issues with the rubbers. To be honest, I haven't looked at my Panda engine in detail although I have a boat with a fairly big diesel engine and I had to tighten the mounting bolts to cure vibration.
 
So having driven the car, the vibrations is felt through the clutch and the gearstick (gearstick vibrates noisily and quite intensely) under accelerations and deceleration at high revs, particularly in first and second.

Stealers want to start with replacing mounts at 420 euros and work back from there. I'm not keen on an expensive expedition as I've been through one before with my BMW without the problem being found.

Do these symptoms sound familiar to anyone and is 420 to replace the engine mounts reasonable?

Sorry to say that it sounds like my experience with a failed Dual Mass Flywheel (DMF) did you say it was a TA?

Local (competent) Alfa specialist sorted it with clutch for 600GBP I think.

I wouldn't wish this on you but get someone to check it out. DMF only applicable to TA I believe.
 
Thanks for the comments! Just before I splash out on a dual mass flywheel.

Ok when driving in low low revs, but anything over 2000 in 1st or second and vibrations heard, higher revs the whole hear stick rattles and coming out and going back into gear becomes difficult

Similar symptoms to your DMF? And needed a full me clutch at the same time?

Is it easy to diagnose if I have my mechanic look in the right place? And what would that right place be?
 
Thanks for the comments! Just before I splash out on a dual mass flywheel.

Ok when driving in low low revs, but anything over 2000 in 1st or second and vibrations heard, higher revs the whole hear stick rattles and coming out and going back into gear becomes difficult

Similar symptoms to your DMF? And needed a full me clutch at the same time?

Is it easy to diagnose if I have my mechanic look in the right place? And what would that right place be?

Sounds familiar I'm afraid; clutch bite near the floor? Clutch replacement/DMF go hand in hand I think.

I had the issue following (or at the same time) uni-air failure (effectively running on one cylinder). This required much slipping of clutch to get moving and I guess symptoms that resembled engine management safe mode or whatever they call it. Anyways this may have exacerbated the clutch/DMF failure.

The rattley gearstick definitely went away once clutch/DMF sorted.

Diagnosis? Not sure other than if you're suspicious of the clutch (already you've mentioned gear change problem) I think you're halfway there? I think you need to split the gbox from engine to be sure but...

How many miles done? Mine had 55k on the clock but it had only been in my ownership for the last 12k so may have been brutalised.
 
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88k km so silimar mileage. I'll get engine mounts dmf and clutch done and hope for the best. It was on max service intervals, which I believe for this car signals someone not really caring.
 
Stealers adement it was not DMF, but they also denied there is a DMF problem with twin airs and said they've never had to replace one. They reckoned a DMF would have had the whole car shaking not just the gear stick and clutch.

That said more symptoms have appeared, unable to select reverse without crunching.

They did also say the worn (not broken) engine mount was on the left side, which is the transmission side.
 
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Stealers adement it was not DMF, but they also denied there is a DMF problem with twin airs and said they've never had to replace one. They reckoned a DMF would have had the whole car shaking not just the gear stick and clutch.

Depnds on how knackered it is, surely? Sure as hell, the first place you'll notice that it's failing is via the clutch and gear stick. The difficulty engaging the gears is surely a further sign.
 
We'll find out soon. My mechanic is so sure it's not the engine mount he says there's no point fitting the mount without the DMF/clutch as by the time be replaced the transmission side mount, he's part way to doing the DMF too. He feels that'd be a waste of labour for no reason.
 
I think we've exhausted the simple things, mechanic had it for 2 weeks searching, so I think anything simple has been crossed off. (He didn't charge as he didn't find it, Vs Fiat trying to charge 50 euros for also not finding it...)
 
It was the DMF. They went to fit the new LUK clutch and the new release bearing is damaged, so now they have the car in pieces cluttering their workshop while they try to source that part - they don't want to put the used one from the old clutch in as it isn't 100% and they're afraid it won't last long enough.
 
It was the DMF. They went to fit the new LUK clutch and the new release bearing is damaged, so now they have the car in pieces cluttering their workshop while they try to source that part - they don't want to put the used one from the old clutch in as it isn't 100% and they're afraid it won't last long enough.

Sorry to hear this but glad you resolved the problem. The twin air engine is quite highly strung (tuned) and with just two cylinders on a 360 degree crank (both pistons rising and falling together) and therefore has plenty of opportunity for vibration. FIAT have done a good job in smoothing all this out with a balance shaft and indeed the DMF. Given this, any "new" vibration would make you consider one of the above; however the balance shaft is gear driven off the crank so for this to get out of sync then there is something terminally broken this leaves the DMF whose life appears to go hand in hand with the clutch.

This was my experience.

Moving on, this video gives a good view of the TA; and helps identify how "the leg bone is connected to the knee bone" so to speak if you are into DIY or just inquisitive.

At 875cc, and nominally 85HP this engine achieves 100HP a litre which was pretty much the holy grail for engine tuners and remains pretty good. The official fuel economy figures are, in my experience, unrealistic and unachievable, however I regularly return 38mpg and for a car with this power/weight ratio I'm more than happy with. It's also sensible insurance wise with my Student children. 4x4 TA.

Just keep the oil changes up (and check the level) using proper spec to look out for that UniAir module.
 
Thanks, interesting! Hopefully next time there's an issue I'll be better able to find the problem.

To round this off, the car is back home working perfectly again.

All in all it cost £380 in parts (dmf, clutch, front brake discs and pads and transmission side engine mount) plus 200 euro in labour (50 of which went to fiat for looking under the bonnet and misdiagnosing).

I feel lucky to have the mechanic I have, will have to get him a bottle of something to say thanks.
 
Thanks, interesting! Hopefully next time there's an issue I'll be better able to find the problem.

To round this off, the car is back home working perfectly again.

All in all it cost £380 in parts (dmf, clutch, front brake discs and pads and transmission side engine mount) plus 200 euro in labour (50 of which went to fiat for looking under the bonnet and misdiagnosing).

I feel lucky to have the mechanic I have, will have to get him a bottle of something to say thanks.

Wow, a bargain!
 
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