General FCA Wants To Quit Europe’s Minicar Segment Altogether.
- Thread starter The Pretender
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General FCA Wants To Quit Europe’s Minicar Segment Altogether.
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I think it makes sense. Profit margins are getting way to small on these cars and they cost just as much to develop. If you look at the price of a Panda without taxes it's about as much as 3 good electric bicycles wich is pretty insane if you think about it.
Dismal! How come Hyundai/Kia make their i10/Picanto profitable and STILL offer such long warranties??
Same goes for Toyota/PSA with the Aygo/108.
It's not like FCA's 'upmarket' and supposedly more profitable cars are selling in droves. Alfa Romeo and Maserati's numbers are pitiful.
Same goes for Toyota/PSA with the Aygo/108.
It's not like FCA's 'upmarket' and supposedly more profitable cars are selling in droves. Alfa Romeo and Maserati's numbers are pitiful.
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Fiat now is PSA and they wan't to quit making small cars as well. FCA sells millions of pick ups in the USA and that's a lot more profitable then developpi g new Panda's and 500's.
For KIA and Hyundai I don't know how much money thet make and 7 year warrenties are just marketing schemes. You have to spent a ton of money on maintenance to be able to claim something under their 7 year warrenty.
OP
OP
The new Panda and 500 are almost ready.
Both cars will be around 3.68m long and 10 cm wider as now.
There price will also be higher and they will end up being B-segment cars.
Both cars will be around 3.68m long and 10 cm wider as now.
There price will also be higher and they will end up being B-segment cars.
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We'll have to wait and see but many believe the 500 name will be exclusively used for a more upmarket small electric vehicle and that the Panda will disappear alltogether.
A brand new Punto based on the new platform that's used for the new Corsa and 208 might be more logical. It's not that they have problems selling the 500 and the Panda at the moment but they just don't make them much money.
A brand new Punto based on the new platform that's used for the new Corsa and 208 might be more logical. It's not that they have problems selling the 500 and the Panda at the moment but they just don't make them much money.
Hi.
Although Fiat don't make huge amounts on the 500 & Panda they are loss leaders. Without them Fiat would loose out on the bigger sized offerings. Salesmen sell up to customers so without the 500 and even the Panda the customer walking into the showroom will decline effecting sales of all models.
So again for me lets see what Fiat actually do!!!
Although Fiat don't make huge amounts on the 500 & Panda they are loss leaders. Without them Fiat would loose out on the bigger sized offerings. Salesmen sell up to customers so without the 500 and even the Panda the customer walking into the showroom will decline effecting sales of all models.
So again for me lets see what Fiat actually do!!!
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But that is probably where there biggest problem is, they don't really have cars above the Panda and 500 that actually sell. I love Fiat but switched to the new Fiesta as I can't get a good replacement for my old Panda Sempre from 2013 in their current line up. The new Panda's are all poorly specced and way to expensive.
gar074
Prominent member
I'd be fascinated to know what proportion of 500 & Panda owners 'trade up' to a 500L or a Tipo. I suspect it's much lower than, say, Ka owners trading up to a Fiesta/Focus/C Max, or Up! owners trading up to a Polo/Golf. Fiat's problem is that it hasn't had a sales success in the B or C segment for ages. And it only manages to shift metal in those segments by offering huge discounts. (Sales of the 500X have nose-dived since they stopped selling them in bulk to the fleet/ rental market.)
Looking at the current PSA range, it's hard to see any gaps in the B or C segments that Fiat could realistically expect to fill. PSA already has the 'cheap 'n cheerful' end if the B/C segment well covered with Citroen and Vauxhall/Opel. So, unless Fiat is allowed to focus on the A segment, I don't think it will still be around as a volume car producer in 10 years time - or even 5, given the volatility of the market (not helped by the fact that Fiat is well behind its competitors, both within and outside PSA, on its development of electric vehicles).
I fear that Alfa will go the same way as Fiat. The best it can hope for is to be allowed to build sports-oriented models on PSA platforms.
In the inimitable words of Joni Mitchell:
"Don't it always seem to go,
That you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone..."
(Maybe Fiat could focus on building Big Yellow Taxis :chin
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gar074
Prominent member
Just seen the announcement that Alfa is ending production of the 4C, having announced last week that it is scrapping its plans for a new GTV and 8C. In the short to medium term (if it survives that long), Alfa's future will be building SUVs on Jeep platforms, like its forthcoming compact SUV, the Tonale.
How it seriously expects an 'upmarket' compact SUV based on the terminally mediocre Renegade platform to compete with the likes of the Q3 and X1 beats me.
Whilst you're right in essence, I think you underestimate people's stupidity/gullibility and FOMO. I'd wager BMW could chalk-paint a 1976 RangeRover and price it at £60000 as long as it had the badge, some form of touchscreen and tyres the size of Rhode Island.
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The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
I shall buy another new Panda when they run out and keep it in stock. I don't lkike PSA products currently offered. I cannot even sit in , for example a 308 as there is insufficient room and particularly headroom. Over the years my family has spent a lot of money with this firm and been badly treated by their appalling customer service. I doubt I will be buying from them in future because of past experience. I will nurse the current car and ensure it lasts as long as possible. Fiat build the best small cars and the VFM is good. Its a sad day to hear that their talent ion this area may be binned.
If this is progress, shove it!
If this is progress, shove it!
gar074
Prominent member
Yes, BMW probably could, but Fiat couldn't. That's the nub of its problem (along with chronic under-investment, lousy management, rotten customer service, etc)
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I think you need to take all FCA's statements with a pinch of salt.
Their plans change week to week, merger with Renault, merger with PSA, 500 in mild hybrid, 500 in full EV only.
Ford tried the same trick when they dropped the original KA and ran without a city car while pushing the Fiesta.
Fiat, VAG, Renault, Citroen, Kia, Hyundai and all the rest were eager to fill the gap with Pandas, 500's, Mii, Up's, Citigos, Twingos, 107/8s, C1's, Picantos and i10's.
So what did Ford do?
Borrow a Panda/500 for their KA, then design their own (hideous) Ka later on.
That statement reads like Fiat are looking at the B class, the fiesta, Polo, ibiza, Fabia, i20, Clio, 208 etc and thinking we'll have a slice of that but we realise our cupboard is empty and our bank account is in the red and don't know what to do about it.
Will they really drop a class where they have a good slice of the market just to compete in another which is mainly made up of a range of brands sharing cost effective platforms?
Which brings us back to these mergers.
VAG, PSA, Kia/Hyundai and a few others have made platform sharing pretty profitable.
A full range of classes each with a budget, sporty/youthful, premium and snob brand choice in each based on a limited number of platforms, engines and running gear.
Fiat have the brands, but their platforms, engines and running gear are all over the place.
They can't sell the same cars (like the 500) in the US as in Europe without expensive platform mods, they have a mind boggling range of engines and platforms throughout their empire (most inherited when they've bought out other companies or like their Brazil arm, just doing their own thing) and don't really have the money to sort it all out, let alone modify their current range to meet the market demands of today (EV's, hybrids, active safety systems etc).
Without a merger it's likely they'll knockout warmed up versions of their current (and current pipeline) models for years or until they die a Punto's death while having to buy in systems at a great cost rather than develop their own.
With one, hopefully they'll get to share some tech for current demands, share development costs for new models across all brands and get some expertise in rationalising engines and platforms, something PSA have been eyeing VAG on for a while.
Their plans change week to week, merger with Renault, merger with PSA, 500 in mild hybrid, 500 in full EV only.
Ford tried the same trick when they dropped the original KA and ran without a city car while pushing the Fiesta.
Fiat, VAG, Renault, Citroen, Kia, Hyundai and all the rest were eager to fill the gap with Pandas, 500's, Mii, Up's, Citigos, Twingos, 107/8s, C1's, Picantos and i10's.
So what did Ford do?
Borrow a Panda/500 for their KA, then design their own (hideous) Ka later on.
That statement reads like Fiat are looking at the B class, the fiesta, Polo, ibiza, Fabia, i20, Clio, 208 etc and thinking we'll have a slice of that but we realise our cupboard is empty and our bank account is in the red and don't know what to do about it.
Will they really drop a class where they have a good slice of the market just to compete in another which is mainly made up of a range of brands sharing cost effective platforms?
Which brings us back to these mergers.
VAG, PSA, Kia/Hyundai and a few others have made platform sharing pretty profitable.
A full range of classes each with a budget, sporty/youthful, premium and snob brand choice in each based on a limited number of platforms, engines and running gear.
Fiat have the brands, but their platforms, engines and running gear are all over the place.
They can't sell the same cars (like the 500) in the US as in Europe without expensive platform mods, they have a mind boggling range of engines and platforms throughout their empire (most inherited when they've bought out other companies or like their Brazil arm, just doing their own thing) and don't really have the money to sort it all out, let alone modify their current range to meet the market demands of today (EV's, hybrids, active safety systems etc).
Without a merger it's likely they'll knockout warmed up versions of their current (and current pipeline) models for years or until they die a Punto's death while having to buy in systems at a great cost rather than develop their own.
With one, hopefully they'll get to share some tech for current demands, share development costs for new models across all brands and get some expertise in rationalising engines and platforms, something PSA have been eyeing VAG on for a while.
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My point was, the technology of a vehicle has little importance to most buyers of premium vehicles - it's the badge. It doesn't matter that the Alfas are using a warmed-over chassis - they'd still only sell a few dozen if it was the greatest chassis in the world.
gar074
Prominent member
Sad but true.
I have a feeling that the triplets (Aygo, C1, 108) become quaduplets...
The other triplets (Up, Mii, Citigo) all become electrified.
gr J
The other triplets (Up, Mii, Citigo) all become electrified.
gr J
OP
OP
Ay... gone... Mised that.
Well as long as they still can be quadruplets
gr J
Mised that. Well as long as they still can be quadruplets
gr J
The Panda Nut
Nutty about Pandas Infected by Panda virus and OPD
The new Panda and 500 are almost ready.
Both cars will be around 3.68m long and 10 cm wider as now.
There price will also be higher and they will end up being B-segment cars.
You are probably right. In this case the b is for too B big! For some smaller is better. If they want to make some money. I would love a 100HP 4x4 with full luxury spec interior including sun roof and full leather. I am sure there is a market for small well trimmed and equipped cars for those downsizing.
What do we get. A car with a handbag logo on the rear window that closely resembles a T***!
