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Technical Panda 4x4 Antarctica very low miles, some queries

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Technical Panda 4x4 Antarctica very low miles, some queries

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Il Karro said:
Left the car with them and got a call a couple of hours later to inform me that the front brakes were badly pitted, corroded and needed replaced, told them to replace with Pagid ones. They also had problems with the oil sump and said the screw was quite loose when they removed it because the thread in the oil sump was stripped.

I informed them that there had been no signs of oil leaks on my garage floor and asked them if the screw had been over tightened previously or what had caused it. They couldn't really say but were going to try and re tap the thread and if that didn't work, it would be a new oil sump, that wouldn't arrive until Friday. Thought to myself I could manage if car was off the road a couple of days if need be, then they told me it was a relatively time consuming job to replace sump and the price tag of a new oem oil sump was hefty too.

So whilst I waited with dread on another phone call I contacted my local fiat garage and queried price of new oil sump, and labour charges to get it replaced here are the prices

oem oil sump £328.15
3 hours labour £315 +VAT
and of course replacement oil
Click to expand...

First off, am I right you've got the twin air in this? If so:

Compared with what I would pay at my local factor (SRS Autoparts) or from Shop4parts The parts look expensive. Then again I nearly had a heart attack at the full retail charged on the parts for my Ibiza service by the main agent (to maintain warranty)! Out of warranty now so it'll be "Jock's motors" from here on.

I think the oil should be a 0w30? (Selenia Digitek pure energy recommended by S4p @ £17.89 plus Vat for 2 litres). So, at 5w30 you have an oil which is very slightly thicker when cold. I don't know what the API/ACEA spec should be - maybe C2 is acceptable? Anyway I believe the hydraulically actuated valve trains on these engines is very sensitive to the correct oil being used Maybe someone who knows more about the twin airs could advise?

Stripped out sump drain threads in ally sumps have long been a curse. I remember it being one of the first lectures I got when I started working on BMC stuff (Mini, 1100/1300, Maxi, Landcrab, etc etc which all had cast ally sumps) and it's still as big a curse today. Most of the specialists insist on a torque wrench being used to tighten them in an effort to prevent this happening. It's so prevalent that generic kits are now marketed which have sump plugs one size bigger with a special tap to remake the thread so the oversize plug can be used. For example these would probably do for a repair to the 14mm plug in my boy's old diesel Fabia:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/13-PCE-15m...M15-CT2751/1306271028?iid=401601814662&chn=ps

If you ever need a sump S4p are currently doing them for £149.82 plus Vat.

https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=...ts=1099&term=Fiat_500_0.9_Turbo_TwinAir_Sumps

You need to ask them if They simply cleaned the threads up by running an original size tap down them or did they retap the whole out and fit a larger sized repair plug? If all they did was run a tap through it you can probably look forward to a "proper" repair being needed the next time. In the mean time, if it's not leaking, DON'T TOUCH IT! because it may well leak if "fiddled" with.

There is the other option of drilling it out and fitting a helicoil type repair thread insert.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M14-x-1-...m3b1e70f088:g:xf8AAOSwX8dbtRnG&frcectupt=true

So there are a few reasonably cheap options to explore before you need to splash out on a complete replacement sump - which is a relatively big job in comparison.
 
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Just spotted the Selenia is an ACEA C2 spec oil - so what you've got in yours is to the same spec but very slightly thicker SAE 5 as against SAE 0 when cold. I doubt if this will give any problems in our moderate climate but I am happy to defer to anyone with more knowledge of the twin air. I myself am very particular about lubricants and would always use the vehicle manufacturer specific product (not necessarily bought from the dealer though) or a product which exactly matches the vehicle manufacturer spec. For instance on my Ibiza/Skoda vehicles which have a factory recommended Castrol product I am happy to use a Quantum branded oil sold through their factoring organisation (TPS) which was made for them by Castrol and now by Fuchs.

I wouldn't be loosing any sleep over this Il Karro. I would check the oil level is between the marks on the dip stick though (Al D seemed to think it takes more oil than they charged you for in his post above).

Kind regards
Jock
 
The early Panda TA 85hp called for:
Selenia K P.E., SAE 5W-40 ACEA C3, Fiat Classification 9.55535-S2
This was changed for later (current) Panda TA 85hp to:
Selenia Digitek P.E., SAE 0W-30 ACEA C2, FIAT Classification 9.55535-GSI

Owners of older Panda TAs have not been advised that the oil spec has changed, and there seems to be some uncertainty whether the change was because
a) Fiat made a design change which necessitated the change in oil spec, so it doesn't apply to older engines, or
b) Fiat decided that 0W-30 would be a better choice (and reduce warranty issues), so it should apply to older engines.

I tried to clarify this with Fiat Customer Service, and sent them my VIN.
When they called back, the information which came up on their system did not give viscosity ratings, just wordy descriptions. I was off-balance when they called, and thought that nothing had been clarified, but afterwards I realised that they had said 'Digitek' in the description of the oil to suit my engine and this name only seems to apply to the SAE 0W-30.

One school of thought is that you must use what the handbook says, so that Fiat cannot brush aside any problems as being due to using the wrong oil (but when out of warranty, Fiat won't be liable anyway).
The other approach is that Fiat changed the oil to suit the engine, so early TA 85s should also change to the SAE 0W-30 oil.

The original Panda handbook called up the 5W-40 for the 85hp turbo engine and the 0W-30 for the 65hp non-turbo engine. This makes me think that the thicker 5W-40 was to protect the turbo, but that Fiat found that the 0W-30 was better for the TA engine (and turbos cost less than uni-air units).

I have now switched to Selenia Digitek P.E., SAE 0W-30 for my 62-plate TA 85hp.

To summarise the above, both oils have been specified for the TA 85hp, so it is unlikely that your current oil will cause any damage in the short-term, but it may not be the optimum long-term choice.
 
chr1s said:
The early Panda TA 85hp called for:
Selenia K P.E., SAE 5W-40 ACEA C3, Fiat Classification 9.55535-S2
This was changed for later (current) Panda TA 85hp to:
Selenia Digitek P.E., SAE 0W-30 ACEA C2, FIAT Classification 9.55535-GSI

Owners of older Panda TAs have not been advised that the oil spec has changed, and there seems to be some uncertainty whether the change was because
a) Fiat made a design change which necessitated the change in oil spec, so it doesn't apply to older engines, or
b) Fiat decided that 0W-30 would be a better choice (and reduce warranty issues), so it should apply to older engines.

I tried to clarify this with Fiat Customer Service, and sent them my VIN.
When they called back, the information which came up on their system did not give viscosity ratings, just wordy descriptions. I was off-balance when they called, and thought that nothing had been clarified, but afterwards I realised that they had said 'Digitek' in the description of the oil to suit my engine and this name only seems to apply to the SAE 0W-30.

One school of thought is that you must use what the handbook says, so that Fiat cannot brush aside any problems as being due to using the wrong oil (but when out of warranty, Fiat won't be liable anyway).
The other approach is that Fiat changed the oil to suit the engine, so early TA 85s should also change to the SAE 0W-30 oil.

The original Panda handbook called up the 5W-40 for the 85hp turbo engine and the 0W-30 for the 65hp non-turbo engine. This makes me think that the thicker 5W-40 was to protect the turbo, but that Fiat found that the 0W-30 was better for the TA engine (and turbos cost less than uni-air units).

I have now switched to Selenia Digitek P.E., SAE 0W-30 for my 62-plate TA 85hp.

To summarise the above, both oils have been specified for the TA 85hp, so it is unlikely that your current oil will cause any damage in the short-term, but it may not be the optimum long-term choice.
Click to expand...

Hi Chris

thanks for the info and taking the time to reply, do you think it's worthwhile getting back in touch with the garage, should they have known what oil to use.

Thanks
 
chr1s said:
The early Panda TA 85hp called for:
Selenia K P.E., SAE 5W-40 ACEA C3, Fiat Classification 9.55535-S2
This was changed for later (current) Panda TA 85hp to:
Selenia Digitek P.E., SAE 0W-30 ACEA C2, FIAT Classification 9.55535-GSI

a) Fiat made a design change which necessitated the change in oil spec, so it doesn't apply to older engines, or
b) Fiat decided that 0W-30 would be a better choice (and reduce warranty issues), so it should apply to older engines.

The other approach is that Fiat changed the oil to suit the engine, so early TA 85s should also change to the SAE 0W-30 oil.
Click to expand...

I would offer the educated guess that by specifying the "thinner" oil it will be operating the valve gear, almost from the cold get go, as it will when the oil is hot. With a lot of oil rushing around through drillings and valves I would guess that the cold performance of the thicker oil will be measurably different to when it's hot and possibly this has been found to be detrimental.

If I owned one, regardless of it's age, I would opt for the thinner oil. - Did I really just say that? I remember, back in the days when Q20/50 ruled the roost I was appalled at the first 5w40 oil change I did. Surely it can't be good for it to run on this "water"? now-a-days 5w40 is just a medium grade lube!
 
Had to call garage back today because my security lug nut was nowhere to be seen, it is kept in my glove compartment. Whilst on the phone I asked if the oil sump had been drilled out, plugged then re tapped or just re tapped, unfortunately just re tapped so will be keeping an eye on the garage floor.

Also asked a couple of questions about the oil they used, because it was a different spec that was written in service book to that of what was written on the receipt. He assured me that they check what oil is needed and it was definitely C2 5w/30.

Chr1s advised that maybe in the long term this could be harmful.

Anyway they dropped off the security lug nut about tea time, but it really doesn't install you with confidence.

Al D also mentioned a garage in Loanhead that might be better, but its a wee bit away.
 
Il Karro suggested place at Loanhead as somewhere could book car in for oil change and wait while do it. Bet they can get 0w 30 C2 oil and reset service and uniair bits, and show you what they've used. If they can do that I'd be pretty confident you can trust them. ?
 
Al D said:
Il Karro suggested place at Loanhead as somewhere could book car in for oil change and wait while do it. Bet they can get 0w 30 C2 oil and reset service and uniair bits, and show you what they've used. If they can do that I'd be pretty confident you can trust them. ?
Click to expand...

Going to take a jaunt through and check the area out.

Thanks
 
Pugglt Auld Jock said:
I would offer the educated guess that by specifying the "thinner" oil it will be operating the valve gear, almost from the cold get go, as it will when the oil is hot. With a lot of oil rushing around through drillings and valves I would guess that the cold performance of the thicker oil will be measurably different to when it's hot and possibly this has been found to be detrimental.

If I owned one, regardless of it's age, I would opt for the thinner oil. - Did I really just say that? I remember, back in the days when Q20/50 ruled the roost I was appalled at the first 5w40 oil change I did. Surely it can't be good for it to run on this "water"? now-a-days 5w40 is just a medium grade lube!
Click to expand...

I still think Duckhams Q20/50 is the best engine oil ever available. You used to get proper oil pressure! I totally identify with your underlying distrust of thin oil. And, lets face it, oil should be green!

I had a long conversation with the GEM motoring tech expert recently and he convinced me that sticking to the manufacturers recommended oil is now even more important not just because of the grade and viscosity but the specific additive packages that are apparently tailored to the known contaminant types in each engine. Also convinced me that a little emulsion due to s in the engine can be expected these days.
 
Al D said:
Il Karro suggested place at Loanhead as somewhere could book car in for oil change and wait while do it.
Click to expand...

I would guess that's McLennan's? - Alfa specialists. So far not actually had any work done there as Kenny Harrison is just round the corner down here in Leith. However I did get a very competitive clutch quote from them not so long ago, and there are many good reviews. Maybe they'd do something as simple as an oil/filter change while you wait? you could always ask.

I think it's owned by a chap called Stewart McLennan? who is an ex-Fishers Alfa Romeo man so should know exactly what he's doing. If something happened to my older boy's Punto (He lives out there on the south side of the city) which I couldn't deal with we would be using this garage. - Quite accessible too as it's just south of the city bypass.
 
The Panda Nut said:
I still think Duckhams Q20/50 is the best engine oil ever available. You used to get proper oil pressure! I totally identify with your underlying distrust of thin oil. And, lets face it, oil should be green!
Click to expand...

How about this, successor to "Q" I think:

P1080373.JPG

and it's green too!

P1080374.JPG

P1080377.JPG

I've been using it for years for general oiling duties (hinges and the like).

I used to turn my old oil tins into small parts bins but find the modern plastic containers not so robust:

P1080386.JPG

A full one of these is about what I can comfortably manage to lift up and down from the shelf these days.

P1080387.JPG

The old Q20w50 tin makes interesting reading and it came in a "proper" imperial size!

P1080389.JPG

P1080388.JPG

But that was all in days gone by -sigh - today, as you say, use only an oil which exactly meets the engine manufacturer's specification. Deviate from this at your peril!
 
Can you tell me how I get the part numbers for pollen filter, spark plugs etc just to make sure I get the correct stuff. Going to buy the parts and oil myself from s4p.

Thanks
 
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Parts here: Possible may be comments box as part of order you can put your reg in so they can be doubly sure.

2 of these. https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=store&op=Details&ProdID=8944&sku=262322

Oil filter. https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=...da_IV_(2012_to_)_0.9_TwinAir_Turbo_Oil_Filter

Air filter. https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=...da_IV_(2012_to_)_0.9_TwinAir_Turbo_Air_Filter

Pollen Filter. https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=...IV_(2012_to_)_0.9_TwinAir_Turbo_Pollen_Filter

Sump Plug. https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=...t_Panda_IV_(2012_to_)_0.9_TwinAir_Turbo_Sumps

2 of these. https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=...012_to_)_0.9_TwinAir_Turbo_Spark_&_Glow_Plugs

Coolant. https://www.shop4parts.co.uk/?name=..._to_)_0.9_TwinAir_Turbo_Antifreeze_/_Coolants

Do bear in mind though as mechanic said to me, work he does and his sourced parts from Euro Car Parts or EK's are his guarantee on the work. I supplied him Fiat oil filter and a Bosch one before with no problems. But if anything went wrong, tough.
 
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Al D said:
Parts here: Possible may be comments box as part of order you can put your reg in so they can be doubly sure.

Thanks for your help Al D had most of this stuff in my cart but missed out the coolant and the sump plug. Had looked on Euro Car Parts and was wondering if I should get the NGK spark plugs from their. Some people on here seem to favour them, but there is a bit of difference in price but if they make a difference I don't mind. What do you think?

Shop 4 parts £13.86 each
Euro car parts £23.99 each
Click to expand...
 
Went for the NGK, everything ordered, fingers crossed. Will see if I can get them all fitted next week.

Thanks will keep you updated on the progress
 
Hope all goes well. NGK make Fiat's plugs to my knowledge. Spending extra worth it to you and will definitely be iridium. Expect 5 years/48k miles off them maybe. Mine still going at 36 months/39k miles (mechanic believes originals).
 
Il Karro - If you're unsure about parts from Shop4parts just give them a ring. I've done that several times now and the 'phone has always been picked up by the same person. Mick - or is it Mike? is very helpful indeed and very easy and pleasant to talk to. Having identified the parts you can then go back online and order them up that way so you can claim the Forum discount (Not an enormous amount but every little helps!)
Regards
Jock
 
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