Technical talk to me about short journeys.

Currently reading:
Technical talk to me about short journeys.

Joined
Mar 25, 2018
Messages
230
Points
129
Can the more experienced members tell me what happens to a engine when it is run on constant short journeys and what damage it does?
Would regular oil and spark changes prolong engine life to normal levels?
Thanks.
 
Short answer: most elements of the engine are designed around a nominal operating temperature, short journeys don't get the engine up to that temperature so everything operates suboptimally, causing wear which will shorten the lifespan of these elements.

Long answer: Whether diesel or petrol, engines are designed to function based on the energy they can extract from the fuel they are given. In most cases, the combustion of that fuel has a certain level at which it is optimal. For petrol, an air/fuel mixture of 14.7:1 and for diesel 14.5:1 is the stoichiometric ratio at which complete combustion of the air/fuel mixture occurs. Anything deviating from this ratio results in incomplete combustion, which produces byproducts such as soot, carbon, and nitrous oxides at levels higher than normal. Therefore, everything in the engine is designed to best achieve this air/fuel ratio.

Assuming this goal, the first thing an engine has to do when it starts combusting is to ensure it can turn over. Everything in the engine that moves needs to be lubricated, and engine oils work within a specific range. That's why we see viscosity ratings like 10-40W, 5-30 etc. Essentially, the engine oil needs to be thick enough when the engine isn't running to be able to stick to all the moving parts so that they're lubricated when it first starts turning, but also thin enough to get into every nook and cranny that needs lubrication. The thing about oil is that its properties change based on temperature, which is why older mineral oils had very limited operating ranges. Synthetic oils have overcome this issue to a great degree, and keep their characteristics both when it's quite cold out and the engine is just started, and when you've been thrashing it around a race track in the summer. Unfortunately, the limitations of physics means that oils are at their worst when the engine is cold, and only start doing their job properly once they have reached nominal operating temperature. That's where constant short journeys start to come in.

When used for short journeys alone, the engine rarely has enough time to get up to temperature (through both friction and the heat produced by combustion). Therefore, many of the engines moving parts are poorly lubricated during this period. Additionally, since engine temperatures aren't where they should be yet, combustion itself is usually poor as oil hasn't had time to get between the piston rings and cylinder wall, and the cylinder and heads/valves have differing temperatures. Since most of the engine is metal, the differing temperatures cause differing rates of expansion. That means that everything that should be sealed tight (such as the aforementioned piston rings) haven't had time to warm up and expand to provide a proper seal. All in all, the engine is basically working to both provide motion, and get up to temperature (through extra fuelling especially in the cold) and try to maintain a usable air/fuel mixture. Since during the short journey the engine is under higher load but not in the optimal range of doing that work, it wears out certain things.

The things that get worn out most due to short journeys are: oil, spark plugs, injectors, catalysts, turbos, and seals. Oil, turbos and seals (such as piston rings, valve seats, exhaust gas recirculation - EGR valves etc.) get worn due to the moving parts issue. Plugs and injectors get worn due to the thick oil and poor combustion fouling them (this also influences EGR valves and the diesel particulate filter). Catalysts degrade because they need to be at a 'just right' temperature to operate best. Too cold, and condensation corrodes them. Too hot and the catalyst gets consumed through high temperature oxidation (same corrosion basically, but due to temperature excess rather than condensation of water).

All in all, overall engine life (while hard to judge) won't be dramatically reduced from a life of short journeys, but the bits of it that take the brunt of the force of these short journeys will need to be replaced more frequently. Early (as in about 2-3k kilometers sooner than recommended) preventative maintenance would minimize the issue, with closer oil and spark plug changes working in your favor. The greatest issue would be if something like a piston ring, EGR valve, injector or diesel particulate filter going bad as they're expensive (especially if it's an internal element like the piston ring or valve seat that would require opening up the engine). Oddly enough, something that may work in your favor (especially if we're talking about a petrol vehicle) is the occasional 'Italian tune-up', or basically some spirited driving (once the engine has warmed up). It clears out carbon buildup and gets oil into all the places it hasn't had a chance to go in the short journeys. If that's also not an option, a short (20 minute) motorway stint once a month would also work in your favor.
 
Can the more experienced members tell me what happens to a engine when it is run on constant short journeys and what damage it does?
Would regular oil and spark changes prolong engine life to normal levels?
Thanks.

Hi.:)

How short ? in time..and distance.. :)

If it doesnt register heat on the dashboard thermometer.. then it is killing the engine.

Oil will be contaminated by both excess fuel AND moisture that has not evaporated through engine heat.

If this is too short. Walk :cyle..
take the bus.. or drive an electric vehicle. ;)

Charlie
 
cracking answer! the engine in question is the 1200 FIRE, so i think ( with the odd long run and 6 mthly services) i have the right engine for the job.
 
cracking answer! the engine in question is the 1200 FIRE, so i think ( with the odd long run and 6 mthly services) i have the right engine for the job.

Our second Panda has the 1.2 Fire engine, as did my old 2006 Panda. They're pretty bomb proof and warm up quite quickly, but as Charlie mentioned, the dash gauge is a good indicator.
 
Most of my running is short journeys. My routine is two oil changes a year, that's between 1000 & 1500miles use of the oil. Although the heater has an air valve I keep it on cold till I see at least 3 segments on the temperature gauge. Fit an oil catch tank between the breather on the cam cover and air filter, it collects oil and a lot of condensation. Do a 20 mile run every two to three weeks to remove condensation in the sump. Fit Iridium spark plugs.
Walk instead of doing short runs if possible.
 
Last edited:
cracking answer! the engine in question is the 1200 FIRE, so i think ( with the odd long run and 6 mthly services) i have the right engine for the job.


No motor is going to run efficiently in short cold runs..
You can always employ an Eberspacher .. or Mains Electric preheater.

BUT..:-

You have yet to quantify your usage.

If you are running in sub.10 minute intervals.

The best ICE motor is a small .. non.dpf diesel.

Petrol is a SOLVENT.. washing away oil lubrication.

Diesel is an OIL.. adding to the lubrication
 
Last edited:
No motor is going to run efficiently in short cold runs..
You can always employ an Eberspacher .. or Mains Electric preheater.

BUT..:-

You have yet to quantify your usage.

If you are running in sub.10 minute intervals.

The best ICE motor is a small .. non.dpf diesel.

Petrol is a SOLVENT.. washing away oil lubrication.

Diesel is an OIL.. adding to the lubrication

Ah but.
The lubricating properties of diesel is far less than it used to be due to the removal of sulphur. Diesel is still a solvent, it's used by many motor engineers to clean gunk off cylinder heads, blocks etcetera. The snag with diesel engines is the long warm up time, short runs will dilute the sump oil and reduce its additive package, God forbid if you have a MJ engine in these circumstances as the timing chain is the weak link (pardon the pun) with diluted oil.
The best scenario for short runs is an air cooled petrol followed by an all alloy engine with wet liners as they get up to operating temperature quickly, forget diesels for short runs.
 
I had a daily diesel hack & did quite a lot of short journeys. A 1.3 cdi, nippy wee thing for what it was. Over 150000 miles on the clock,changed the oil & filters regularly. No engine issues at all, ten years ownership, until some numpty ran into me & wrote it off, car was thirteen years old. I would've still had the wee beastie if things had been different. I was just going to run the thing into the ground.
 
That's the key......... regular oil and filter changes and yes even on diesels. Where it goes wrong is owners thinking it's only done 10,000 miles so doesn't need an oil change but then only to find out its four or more years down the line. In my opinion even an annual service is pushing it if you only do sub ten minute runs. A neighbour across the road has a 2005 BMW 320d every day he goes to the Spar shop that is 400 yards away, he's away for under five minutes and that includes going into the shop for his paper. He admittedly has had bowel cancer, a kidney removed and has a stoma, but he can't get it that it's needed two EGR valves, the manifold cleaned out and the engine sounds like a bag of nails, plus a service every two years........ I mean to say!!!!! He could walk and be fitter, I've spinal stenosis and two worn knees and still walk
 
Aye Murphy, I've been banging on for years about the importance of oil & filter change, on ANY car. I was an apprentice mechanic back in the early 70's & cut my teeth on oil/brakes. Twice yearly, never mind the numbers.

Sorry to hear your situation, genuinely, I bet you get all frustrated when you could easily do a job on the motor, but bad health stops you(n)
I'm not quite so bad, but my legs are dodgy along with my knees, waiting for a second hip op' I spend more time making sure the car is safe to work on than doing the bloody job. Still, I'm here & keen..:D Bad year this last one, lost a few work buddies from the oil days & a couple of neighbors....:(
 
This is going to sound lazy but go with me, the journeys in question are 1.5 miles each ( 3 mile round trip) in bad weather,( i walk when its decent) for my job i walk 12 miles a day in all weathers within 3 hours so the 1.5 mile walk home when its cold and drizzling is soul destroying after youve been out in for 3/4hrs and your knackered!

I would love an old style beetle for this kind of trip and then rebuild/refurb the engine once a yr, but i cant find one that's decent and there all expensive now!
Also considered a 50cc moped but as ive just brought a new 700 id loose to much money changing it, Also i cant get on with a cycle, its very hilly and i find a cycle far to light to balance after being on a hefty motorbike.

I guess this leaves me with regular services of the oil and plugs in the 1200 panda?
 
Hi Leroy.
That certainly isn't the worst I've come across. There are other things you can do to make a difference to the long life of your car and engine. Like you say along with myself and others replacing the oil twice a year is the way to go, I might get a little flak for this but I change the filter on the second oil change so only once a year. The sump at its bottom collects the gunk but its rarely sucked into the filter unless the oil is not drained often enough. I also now use a cheaper oil of the correct spec, no need to splash out on the dearest oil if you change it every 6 months, I use Technolube (Made by Carlube) ACEA C3 5W40 which I can buy for under £20 for 5 litres, so with one filter change per year there is enough in the 5 litre can for two oil drains.

An oil catch tank definitely reduces condensation being sucked into the inlet manifold, that along with some oil mist will gradually build up deposits in the manifold and behind the inlet valves which can be a hard carbon mess.

Having the heater air flap on hot acts like a mini radiator and slows down warm up in winter, put on the thermals and turn the heater right round to blue (Cold) till at least you see three squares on the temperature gauge, doing this will help the engine warm up quicker.
Iridium Plugs last for 60,000 miles, they clean better than the original types and are cost effective. Some used to say blank off the radiator but i'm not so sure, if the thermostat is OK there is no reason to do this and if for any reason you have to do a long run all of a sudden there is no worry about overheating.

Don't forget that short runs can be hard on the battery especially if you have HRW, Headlights on and other consumers. MY Panda has still its original battery but I do do the odd longer run to Glasgow so it has been fine.
Good Luck.
 
I know I've probably said this before, but for such tiny journeys, personally I'd buy a Renault Twizy and you'll have the perfect vehicle for everyday town use. A decent jacket and you'll not get cold for the few minutes you're in the car. We have a 12v heated seat element in ours and it works wonders as well. So much better than taking even a tonne of Panda (let alone 2.75 tonnes of ego-panzer) over a short distance.

You'd need the Panda to go much more than 30 miles without a sure recharge facility, but they are pennies to run and outstandingly good fun into the bargain.
 

Attachments

  • hg 006.JPG
    hg 006.JPG
    392.7 KB · Views: 32
I know I've probably said this before, but for such tiny journeys, personally I'd buy a Renault Twizy and you'll have the perfect vehicle for everyday town use. A decent jacket and you'll not get cold for the few minutes you're in the car. We have a 12v heated seat element in ours and it works wonders as well. So much better than taking even a tonne of Panda (let alone 2.75 tonnes of ego-panzer) over a short distance.

You'd need the Panda to go much more than 30 miles without a sure recharge facility, but they are pennies to run and outstandingly good fun into the bargain.
I'd agree it does make sense but I just cant afford the outlay.
 
I know I've probably said this before, but for such tiny journeys, personally I'd buy a Renault Twizy and you'll have the perfect vehicle for everyday town use. A decent jacket and you'll not get cold for the few minutes you're in the car. We have a 12v heated seat element in ours and it works wonders as well. So much better than taking even a tonne of Panda (let alone 2.75 tonnes of ego-panzer) over a short distance.

You'd need the Panda to go much more than 30 miles without a sure recharge facility, but they are pennies to run and outstandingly good fun into the bargain.

dont you have a battery rental charge with these?
 
Last edited:
Back
Top