Thank you for asking that question.
I was thinking the same.

SB1500 said:

Just sent this to Euro NCAP... will be interesting to see if they reply and with what...

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Dear concerned

You are correct in the fact that the NCAP tests are very expensive and we are most obliged to the VW group for ponying up the cash, which hopefully answers your other question.

One of my mates heard a report on the radio slating the Panda, no idea what station it was on. Oh well back to my Skoda days when you only got a fiver trade in.

Anyone fancy a swap for a cross plus a vintage valve radio?

What seems most odd here is why they have chosen to re-test a Panda at all. The test is called Euro NCAP - the New Car Assessment Programme. The Panda is not a new model, and was tested when it was new in 2011 (in Europe) and faired 'OK' by the standards at that time.

If other cars of 2012 'vintage' were to be retested now, to the newer, stricter standards, I'd expect many would fail. The Fiat 500 for example...? Of the Ford Ka. Or any one of a number of cars from the time...

However, this story helps explain why retests are carried out https://www.carbuyer.co.uk/tips-and-advice/112490/euro-ncap-how-safe-my-car - so maybe there are more to come - and also goes on to explain more fully the latest additions to the test regime. It picks the Punto as an example - a car that got a five-star rating in 2005, but the same car tested this year got none.


[posted before reading SB1500's post, which asks the same question]

May I make two observations
1. My "handle" Motorcyclist Colin gives a clue that I ride motorcycles, old ones, nothing newer than 1993 and nothing with ANY electronic gizmo, not even abs. but the "nut behind the handlebars" is as good as I can make it. I am an Advanced Rider but still do a fairly regular refresher course with the Police and I ride ALWAYS as though EVERY OTHER PERSON/VEHICLE ON THE ROAD IS OUT TO KILL ME. I have not had a motorcycle "moment" since Iwas about 17 and a "know it all/know nothing twit" All the fancy electronics ONLY drive down the already appalling standard of driving. Point 2 illustrates this
2 Before I retired I was an Accident Investigator specialising in RTA's especially motorcycle. Some years ago (when even ABS was a rarity) I had occasion to question a Volvo driver (a witness to an accident) and during the course of our conversation he said "Of course I can't hit anything I have ABS,on my car." I wont repeat the rest of the conversation but he was adamant that ABS prevented him hitting anything however he drove. He would not accept any explanation of what ABS actually did, and presumably drove like a moron ever after. All the while we have idiots like this on the road,we will always have stupid people causing accidents however loaded with electronics their vehicles are.
I amnot going to worry about my new 4x4 Panda's arbitrary NCAP rating.My 17 year old stupid self was 64 years ago, and whilst I have not had a motorcycle accident (apart from some trials riding "get offs" ) I have had a bang in a car, MY FAULT what is more ,"Stupid Boy!" I was not exercising the same sort of care and awareness I do when on a bike, maybe we feel tooprotected and safe in cars

I think they've started reassessing a lot of cars now. And of course the balls-Up! will do well: its loaded with driver aids...

puntofan01 said:

I think they've started reassessing a lot of cars now. And of course the balls-Up! will do well: its loaded with driver aids...

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Ah the Up........ loaded with diver "aids" so its HIV positive, "Highly Inept Vehicle" in my view. Lots of bare metal inside, jack it up and see the body flex, side impact deforms worse than the Panda, just look at the clips and also look how far the front wheels intrude into the the sill area. The Panda windscreen remains intact on the frontal impact where the Up doesn't

puntofan01 said:

I think they've started reassessing a lot of cars now. And of course the balls-Up! will do well: its loaded with driver aids...

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Indeed there are a lot of vehicles with expired ratings and upcoming test results will be interesting. However, the Up! isn't loaded with driver aids though. All it features as standard equipment that contributes to NCAP points is seat belt reminders front and rear so it won't score well. Interestingly VWs configurator is down for maintenance.......

murphyv310 said:

just look at the clips and also look how far the front wheels intrude into the the sill area. The Panda windscreen remains intact on the frontal impact where the Up doesn't https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYZ2ALnQqO4

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The Wheel on the up intrudes no further into the sill area than it does on the panda, If you watch both videos objectively you'll see the tyre in both cases pops and the wheel itself does not intrude at all into the sill on either car.

The windscreen remaining intact is not an indication of improved safety between one car and another, In NCAP tests for the Punto and the 500 the windscreen shatters as did it with the Panda cross, which in the same essential test, is supposedly safer despite being the same basic car underpinnings

So in 5 years time the Panda went from fairly safe to horrible. Luckely most cars out here on the roads have an average age of 10,2 years old so compared to those it's still probably doing very well.
Also a rescent study by the insurance companies over here in the Netherlands stated that cars with driver aides where involved in more crashes then cars without aides so this is very interesting to say the least.Also there have been a lot of concern about adaptive cruise controls not seeing motorcycles so how save are these gadgets really and are drivers responsible enough to use them in the correct way.
In the past I rated the crash tests by euro ncap very highly but nowadays I think there is way to much emphasis on gadgets and pedestrian and biker safety.
I think there should be seperate scores for the active safety systems and the passive crash safety. Also many cars might be equiped with lane assist and autobraking systems but are they all created equal and does Euro NCAP take the quality of these systems in account when the points are awarded?.
This is the study that's only in Dutch I'm affraid about more cars with driver aides being involved in crashes:
https://radar.avrotros.nl/nieuws/item/autos-met-veiligheidssystemen-vaker-betrokken-bij-ongelukken/

eek just seen the posts about the new safety rating for the panda!! i only got mine on tuesday, but did get the safety pack and side airbags as extras does that mean it notches it up from zero???

AndyRKett said:

The Wheel on the up intrudes no further into the sill area than it does on the panda, If you watch both videos objectively you'll see the tyre in both cases pops and the wheel itself does not intrude at all into the sill on either car.

The windscreen remaining intact is not an indication of improved safety between one car and another, In NCAP tests for the Punto and the 500 the windscreen shatters as did it with the Panda cross, which in the same essential test, is supposedly safer despite being the same basic car underpinnings

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Hi.
Thanks for your comments. Body stiffness is integral with bonded windscreens and the Fiat 128 was the first to have a bonded screen. If the screen shatters or cracks its a good indication that the body has flexed in the test, the frontal crumple zones should hopefully absorb as much of the inertia as possible leaving the passenger compartment as intact as is feasible. A screen that breaks or displays multiple cracks usually means something untoward has happened to the shell.
I think we can all say that really any car will have something it falls down on, I don't believe the perfect car has been made.
At the end of the day safety has gone up over the years we shouldn't get complacent though on car systems but need to make sure our driving skills don't get lax by relying on vehicles safety gizmos.
The sad fact is our cars second hand value has obviously taken an overnight plunge, sales will inevitably drop and then who knows what will happen to Fiat especially in the UK.

TheR said:

Also many cars might be equiped with lane assist and autobraking systems but are they all created equal and does Euro NCAP take the quality of these systems in account when the points are awarded?.

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Yes, they do, watch the video for the i30 for example and you will see a number of tests.
They publish their findings in all areas so a customer can tell what is good or bad and act accordingly. It is a shame that the wider public don't educate themselves with such details, nor seem to care. That's why journalists can be so lazy or sweeping in their reports, and how marketing people can get away with the same.

andydiver said:

Yes, they do, watch the video for the i30 for example and you will see a number of tests.
They publish their findings in all areas so a customer can tell what is good or bad and act accordingly. It is a shame that the wider public don't educate themselves with such details, nor seem to care. That's why journalists can be so lazy or sweeping in their reports, and how marketing people can get away with the same.

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Thanks! I looked into it some more and I see that they do.
I'm fine with the Panda scoring 0 stars but I do wonder why the Panda was singled out.It's also the second time they used a Fiat to do this with. Other rescent test of similar cars like the Picanto or Ka+ date back from a couple of years and they only scored 3 stars so I bet they won't be scoring very well this time around. The only recently tested 5 star "supermini" I could find was the vw polo wich I can hardly call a supermini by any means.
So the real question for me remains, how unsafe is the Fiat Panda compared to the I10, Picanto, Ignis, Aygo and up in this market?

I woud be surprised to see a decent score for any of them, with the new test standards.
Can't imagine that the Panda is so much worse then other A-segment cars.

The Pretender said:

I woud be surprised to see a decent score for any of them, with the new test standards.
Can't imagine that the Panda is so much worse then other A-segment cars.

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Nearest example with the new scoring matrix is the Suzuki Jimny which got 3 stars. Safety assistance and pedestrian protection (no surprise because of body shape) were the areas where it dropped points.

I think it (the Jimny) also lost a few points for the roof deformation in frontal offset impact, making opening the door difficult, but still received more points overall due to the fact that the trim tested had city braking (but no lane keep assist, which isn't available on any trim level).

I still really like the new Jimny though, and would definitely consider one if they ever did a diesel (which apparently they have no plans to do).

murphyv310 said:

Hi.
Thanks for your comments. Body stiffness is integral with bonded windscreens and the Fiat 128 was the first to have a bonded screen. If the screen shatters or cracks its a good indication that the body has flexed in the test, the frontal crumple zones should hopefully absorb as much of the inertia as possible leaving the passenger compartment as intact as is feasible. A screen that breaks or displays multiple cracks usually means something untoward has happened to the shell.

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The windscreen is just as much a part of the structure of the car as the metal its made out of, all the metal at the front of the car caved it but you're not complaining about that. The glass is designed to be able to shatter and not collapse in on the occupants, that's the whole point in laminated glass. If it shatters its no big deal, it just means that the glass absorbed some of the energy of the accident.

A windscreen can shatter on any car by doing something as stupid as hitting a big pot hole, My neighbour managed this in his car, hit a pot hole which was harsh enough to pop the tyre, and the windscreen cracked on a week old car, he'd not had it long enough to pick up any stone chips.

NCAP do not pay any attention at all to the windscreen cracking, and as I have already pointed out the Panda Cross in the exact same tests did shatter its own windscreen, with the same body shell, but by your reckoning the panda cross has a compromised body shell because the windscreen broke?

AndyRKett said:

The windscreen is just as much a part of the structure of the car as the metal its made out of, all the metal at the front of the car caved it but you're not complaining about that. The glass is designed to be able to shatter and not collapse in on the occupants, that's the whole point in laminated glass. If it shatters its no big deal, it just means that the glass absorbed some of the energy of the accident.

A windscreen can shatter on any car by doing something as stupid as hitting a big pot hole, My neighbour managed this in his car, hit a pot hole which was harsh enough to pop the tyre, and the windscreen cracked on a week old car, he'd not had it long enough to pick up any stone chips.

NCAP do not pay any attention at all to the windscreen cracking, and as I have already pointed out the Panda Cross in the exact same tests did shatter its own windscreen, with the same body shell, but by your reckoning the panda cross has a compromised body shell because the windscreen broke?

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Hi.
I do agree with what you say up to a point. The screen is yes an integral part of the full structure. Also the frontal area has to deform and absorb the inertia from impact. The screen can crack or break if the bonnet or other parts cause damage. A laminated screen is made up of a sandwich of at least two parts glass and one of a plastic sheet holding the sandwich together. Laminated screens are strong. Ideally the passenger cell should not deform on NCAP tests as the frontal area should absorb inertia. My issue is if the screen breaks in these tests would mean the structure is not stiff enough.

babbo_umbro said:

I wonder if putting the driver out in the front in a transparent, and flimsy, plastic bubble would make people rethink their driving priorities.

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I seem to remember Clarkson saying that the safest car was one which had a big spike attached to the middle of the steering wheel, pointing at the driver.