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Old 1 Week Ago   #31
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

Again TL;DR: my issue isn't with the lack of safety features on the Panda, statistics indicate that they will make the world safer. My issue is with skewed testing, reporting, and the eventual consequences.

As I've said above, the hard numbers indicate the electronics play a role in the reduction of accidents. As such, I'm confident they will eventually become mandated and they too will evolve into better systems. The issue most people have isn't with the systems themselves, but with the perception and sway of public opinion by the weighting and publicity of the NCAP tests. Media sensationalizing aside, the scoring of the test is far from indicative of what one would call an objective assessment. The categories are weighted in a manner that seems more politically motivated than practically or scientifically. The fact that a base spec Panda was tested at all seems to contradict the very name of the institution (NCAP stands for 'New Car Assessment Program - the Panda is hardly a new car). Now, I understand the baseline for what we consider safe has to move forward, as that in and of itself is progress, but it's pointless to taunt Michael Duane Johnson for being slow because he can't keep up with Usain Bolt in a sprint today. It seems, however, that the standard threshold has moved far enough that there is no longer room for the middle ground (namely, 'affordable' or 'value') between 'downright cheap' (such as the current crop of Chinesium alloy brands with the chassis rigidity of a cardboard box) and 'premium' (such as the up! or to a lesser degree the i10) in the small car segment. The misrepresentation of this category of vehicles such as this test is what I take issue with the most, as it will likely remove any incentive for manufacturers to even bother with the 'value' end of the segment, leaving the market to adjust itself to either saving up for a more expensive vehicle with many elements they don't really need/want, or making do with the other end of the spectrum and actually facing (and possibly inflicting) true danger of life and limb unto themselves or others. If they follow this test up with a re-test of the Dacia Sandero (which would probably fare similarly), the image of affordable yet value minded motoring will probably be tarnished beyond repair, relegating such affordable yet 'good enough' vehicles to the Asian, South American, African and Eastern European markets.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #32
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

Lack of gizmos would prevent a 4 or 5 star. The zero rating is due to the readings taken from the crash test dummies. They are tremendous pieces of complex engineering originally designed using volunteers and cadavers. The results won't have been manipulated. I was most concerned by the high readings around the chest and neck. If you watch the video the head movements are incredible and they fly about.
However, the structure of the vehicle was fine. I find it very difficult to believe the seat design is that bad in comparison to others. What is clear is how much the car bounced to the side greatly influenced how the dummies were thrown about.
In the Panda you have a good elevation all round so can better see and avoid hazard. Look at the i30 results, a 5 star car, and watch the video. Your range of view could be a few tens of metres less in busy traffic. The car did not bounce, so the dummies were better off, and it has all the Gizmos. A real crash would have all sorts of dynamics, If an i30 and Panda collided I would sit in either.
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Last edited by andydiver; 1 Week Ago at 22:53.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #33
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

/Rant=On

The main safety responsibility remains with the driver in all circumstances and drivers have to fully acknowledge that. Technology is certaining driving down standards on the road and if as much effort was put into improving driver training as goes into Construction & Use legislation, the world would be a better place. Sure NCAP allows people to make informed decisions about which car they mighty like to buy, but itís not the only thing that keeps their kids safe.

Driving is all about Risk vís Reward and I for one wonít be selling my Morgan 3-Wheeler anytime soon, just because it would probably have scored -15* on NCAP....

/Rant=Off
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Old 1 Week Ago   #34
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

Just looked at the videos and the results on the website.

The biggest concern I spotted was in the overlap test where the drivers head whips back from the airbag, and makes very hard and heavy contact with the B-pillar of the door.

My guess is that N-cap when assessing these tests, look at the impact to the side or front of the head and any hit from the rear is not distinguished from the headrest.

As such the result show good protection to the head (green), but having watched that Video, if that dummy was a person they would have a very serious, maybe even fatal head injury.

In the full front on test the airbag nearly takes the dummy's head off and the top of the head makes contact with the head rest, again this would be a very serious neck injury, but the results appear to show good front passenger neck protection??

There are clearly some floors in the way the results are interpreted.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #35
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

For anyone interested in how the Euro NCAP algorithm works, this table explains, including 2016 v 2018 tests. I have another table somewhere which shows what measures contribute to the scores.

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Read across the table and the lowest matching % score gives the car's rating. So to get a 5 star rating, the car needs to score AOP>80%, COP>80%, PP>60% and SA>70%.

The Panda scored 0 stars on the basis of child occupancy and safety assistance. By way of comparison, the Jeep Wrangler only scored 1 star because of a lack of safety assistance features.

Found it!

Click image for larger version

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Last edited by gazz_bee; 1 Week Ago at 00:10. Reason: Found the table
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Old 1 Week Ago   #36
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

Quote Originally Posted by R1NGA View Post
/Rant=On

The main safety responsibility remains with the driver in all circumstances and drivers have to fully acknowledge that. Technology is certaining driving down standards on the road and if as much effort was put into improving driver training as goes into Construction & Use legislation, the world would be a better place. Sure NCAP allows people to make informed decisions about which car they mighty like to buy, but it’s not the only thing that keeps their kids safe.

Driving is all about Risk v’s Reward and I for one won’t be selling my Morgan 3-Wheeler anytime soon, just because it would probably have scored -15* on NCAP....

/Rant=Off
There's no doubt this would work, to an extent and I for one support it.

But, there's an endless list of accident causes and they are not all down to bad driving.

We're already had the deer in the road scenario and as far as I know, they don't hold driving licenses and not because they always seem to fail the test.

Improving the standard of the driver encountering these would perhaps help in some cases, but even the best are human and they are known to make some bad decisions from time to time, particularly under stress.

We've also a lot of unlicensed and untested road users these days and many are involved in accidents with cars and lorries that aren't the car drivers fault.

I know of someone recently that was involved in a horrific accident and lost a leg.
Needless to say he was well aware that he shouldn't have tried to make a third lane in between two lorries at a set of lights, but he was never trained or tested before he used the road.
The investigation team after the accident were pretty confident if either lorry was fitted with a blind spot detection system, he would have likely fared better.

Fitting active and passive safety devices to every car would not only help mitigate accidents like this, but also those of human failure, whether idiotic or not.

It's debatable if a system like city brake lowers the driving standard.
It could be argued that with the warning that it produces alerting the driver that they might not be driving safely it is actually improving driver response in it's self.
Same goes for speed warning systems, they'll active, flash and buzz when you break the speed limit, you might say they are pretty effective training devices and much better than telling someone something that they then choose to ignore or forget.
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Last edited by Goudrons; 1 Week Ago at 08:29.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #37
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

The thing though is reliance on electronic systems that can fail.
A garage owner friend told be of an obscure failure that is now being examined by the manufacturer, he was not allowed to tell me the make or model of the car but I can tell you what happened. The driver had to hit the brakes and the plastic brake pedal snapped, it didn't have a mechanical hand brake and then crashed into a parked van. As my mate said two major issues with primary safety. Another one I was told about two days ago was my daughter's partner and his 2018 Honda civic, the parking sensors go haywire when it's raining so he had disabled them only to reverse into a concrete bollard as it wasn't visible due to no lighting where he parked and it being below the line of mirrors. Technology is no good if it doesn't work properly but also should not be relied on either. What about the number of reported accidents when air bags haven't deployed? A trip to the scrap yard can be very revealing.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #38
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

Quote Originally Posted by R1NGA View Post
/Rant=On

The main safety responsibility remains with the driver in all circumstances and drivers have to fully acknowledge that. Technology is certaining driving down standards on the road and if as much effort was put into improving driver training as goes into Construction & Use legislation, the world would be a better place. Sure NCAP allows people to make informed decisions about which car they mighty like to buy, but itís not the only thing that keeps their kids safe.

Driving is all about Risk vís Reward and I for one wonít be selling my Morgan 3-Wheeler anytime soon, just because it would probably have scored -15* on NCAP....

/Rant=Off
Decent rant.

Like the sound of the Moggie.

I wonder if putting the driver out in the front in a transparent, and flimsy, plastic bubble would make people rethink their driving priorities.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #39
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

To be honest, I don't care about the electronic stuff. And yeah, it's true it's the drivers responsibility to drive safe and avoid a crash in the first place.. but really, I don't care about that on this particular topic either.

I'm legitimately more concerned about how well the Panda stacks up against other city cars. OF course larger, more expensive and heavier cars will fare better on it....

But the VW Up and Hyundai i10, Celerio etc..... Barring the driver himself, and the electronics... is there any evidence to suggest they have dramatically improved structure, absorb much more shock and that the dummies (us) inside them are exposed to less deadly stopping of momentum?

It gets harder everyday to justify wanting a new Panda. But I still do. I struggle to see why it was randomly re-tested and other city cars aren't. The VW Up also came out in 2011, will it be retested?

Going to go and make my own judgements now by watching the crash tests of the aforementioned vehicles... I want a small car, but I want to be safe too.

We live in a generation where everything is so incredibly one-sided on the media. I accept Fiat don't help themselves in many ways as a company, and I'd love to trust Euro NCAP how I should be able to as a consumer, but them and crushing Fiat as well as the news jumping on the band wagon to make the Panda out to be a glorified shopping trolley (but in a BAD way!) doesn't necessarily strike me as comprehensive, reasonable and entirely honest to be frank..
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

Just sent this to Euro NCAP... will be interesting to see if they reply and with what...
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Old 1 Week Ago   #41
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

Thank you for asking that question.
I was thinking the same.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #42
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

Quote Originally Posted by SB1500 View Post
Just sent this to Euro NCAP... will be interesting to see if they reply and with what...
Dear concerned

You are correct in the fact that the NCAP tests are very expensive and we are most obliged to the VW group for ponying up the cash, which hopefully answers your other question.
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Old 1 Week Ago   #43
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

One of my mates heard a report on the radio slating the Panda, no idea what station it was on. Oh well back to my Skoda days when you only got a fiver trade in.

Anyone fancy a swap for a cross plus a vintage valve radio?
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Old 1 Week Ago   #44
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

What seems most odd here is why they have chosen to re-test a Panda at all. The test is called Euro NCAP - the New Car Assessment Programme. The Panda is not a new model, and was tested when it was new in 2011 (in Europe) and faired 'OK' by the standards at that time.

If other cars of 2012 'vintage' were to be retested now, to the newer, stricter standards, I'd expect many would fail. The Fiat 500 for example...? Of the Ford Ka. Or any one of a number of cars from the time...

However, this story helps explain why retests are carried out https://www.carbuyer.co.uk/tips-and-...ow-safe-my-car - so maybe there are more to come - and also goes on to explain more fully the latest additions to the test regime. It picks the Punto as an example - a car that got a five-star rating in 2005, but the same car tested this year got none.


[posted before reading SB1500's post, which asks the same question]
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Re: Panda gets 0* in Euro NCAP!

May I make two observations
1. My "handle" Motorcyclist Colin gives a clue that I ride motorcycles, old ones, nothing newer than 1993 and nothing with ANY electronic gizmo, not even abs. but the "nut behind the handlebars" is as good as I can make it. I am an Advanced Rider but still do a fairly regular refresher course with the Police and I ride ALWAYS as though EVERY OTHER PERSON/VEHICLE ON THE ROAD IS OUT TO KILL ME. I have not had a motorcycle "moment" since Iwas about 17 and a "know it all/know nothing twit" All the fancy electronics ONLY drive down the already appalling standard of driving. Point 2 illustrates this
2 Before I retired I was an Accident Investigator specialising in RTA's especially motorcycle. Some years ago (when even ABS was a rarity) I had occasion to question a Volvo driver (a witness to an accident) and during the course of our conversation he said "Of course I can't hit anything I have ABS,on my car." I wont repeat the rest of the conversation but he was adamant that ABS prevented him hitting anything however he drove. He would not accept any explanation of what ABS actually did, and presumably drove like a moron ever after. All the while we have idiots like this on the road,we will always have stupid people causing accidents however loaded with electronics their vehicles are.
I amnot going to worry about my new 4x4 Panda's arbitrary NCAP rating.My 17 year old stupid self was 64 years ago, and whilst I have not had a motorcycle accident (apart from some trials riding "get offs" ) I have had a bang in a car, MY FAULT what is more ,"Stupid Boy!" I was not exercising the same sort of care and awareness I do when on a bike, maybe we feel tooprotected and safe in cars
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