Technical Replacement Front Door Speakers

Currently reading:
Technical Replacement Front Door Speakers

Joined
Dec 8, 2006
Messages
1,067
Points
269
Location
Guildford
Folks,

Seems I've managed to pop my NSF door speaker and the distortion is very annoying. Having made the mistake of fitting too powerful an 'upgrade' speaker set to my previous 169 Panda, I don't want to make the same mistake again. So I am looking for some sensible advice as to the suitability of these speakers here;

[ame="https://www.amazon.co.uk/240-Watt-Coaxial-Speakers-12-Fitting-Position/dp/B01BO2QGSW/ref=sr_1_1"]Hertz 240 Watt 2-Way Coaxial Car Speakers for Fiat: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics[/ame]

They claim to be for the 319 model, are at the lower end of the power scale and specifically note that they are sufficiently sensitive to align to the lower outputs of the stock head-units. All sounds thoroughly plausible to me. Not sure if they need adapter rings to fit (my previous upgrade did, so will probably order some to suit) and of course the depth is a potential issue, although they are marked as for the 319.

I rarely replace with standard, as it's usually better to upgrade, but last time I took a backward step with my important 'upgrade'. Comments and thoughts welcome please!
 
Folks,

Seems I've managed to pop my NSF door speaker and the distortion is very annoying. Having made the mistake of fitting too powerful an 'upgrade' speaker set to my previous 169 Panda, I don't want to make the same mistake again. So I am looking for some sensible advice as to the suitability of these speakers here;

Hertz 240 Watt 2-Way Coaxial Car Speakers for Fiat: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics

They claim to be for the 319 model, are at the lower end of the power scale and specifically note that they are sufficiently sensitive to align to the lower outputs of the stock head-units. All sounds thoroughly plausible to me. Not sure if they need adapter rings to fit (my previous upgrade did, so will probably order some to suit) and of course the depth is a potential issue, although they are marked as for the 319.

I rarely replace with standard, as it's usually better to upgrade, but last time I took a backward step with my important 'upgrade'. Comments and thoughts welcome please!

If you look at this i think you need adapters no matter what.

https://www.caraudioshop.nl/premium-speakers-voor-fiat-panda-2012-2015.html

You get: speakers, adapters, and a cable adapter.
 
This post contains affiliate links which may earn a commission at no additional cost to you.
Folks,

Seems I've managed to pop my NSF door speaker and the distortion is very annoying. Having made the mistake of fitting too powerful an 'upgrade' speaker set to my previous 169 Panda, I don't want to make the same mistake again. So I am looking for some sensible advice as to the suitability of these speakers here;

Hertz 240 Watt 2-Way Coaxial Car Speakers for Fiat: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics

They claim to be for the 319 model, are at the lower end of the power scale and specifically note that they are sufficiently sensitive to align to the lower outputs of the stock head-units. All sounds thoroughly plausible to me. Not sure if they need adapter rings to fit (my previous upgrade did, so will probably order some to suit) and of course the depth is a potential issue, although they are marked as for the 319.

I rarely replace with standard, as it's usually better to upgrade, but last time I took a backward step with my important 'upgrade'. Comments and thoughts welcome please!

Blowing up speakers doesn't always have to do with the speaker itself. When the amp is clipping it will also cause blown speakers. Just putting in a speaker with a different rating isn't always the solution.

I always have my stereo at 29 or 30 so that's pretty damn loud(or maybe I'm getting old) and haven't manneged to blow a speaker yet(5 years 40000km).
I would just fit the original speaker as if I remember correctly they are pretty cheap.
 
This post contains affiliate links which may earn a commission at no additional cost to you.
The speakers need to be adequately rated. If your head unit is 40 watts RMS per channel then you need a speaker that has some headroom above the headunits power. I'd be fitting a speaker that is rated at least 60 watts RMS. Forget PMPO ratings as they are meaningless, also ensure that you get the correct impedance speaker to match the headunit.
 
Blowing up speakers doesn't always have to do with the speaker itself. When the amp is clipping it will also cause blown speakers. Just putting in a speaker with a different rating isn't always the solution.

I always have my stereo at 29 or 30 so that's pretty damn loud(or maybe I'm getting old) and haven't manneged to blow a speaker yet(5 years 40000km).
I would just fit the original speaker as if I remember correctly they are pretty cheap.

All agreed, although the failure is most definitely due to a duff speaker, rather than being blown by pushing volume too high (I personally max out at about 16 regardless!). I am a bit geeky about proper home HiFi and still enjoy a 30+ year old Class-A amp with some lovely Linn Kaber speakers in my listening room. If only I could get that type of response and clarity in the car eh?!

Thanks the the answers so far folks (y)
 
The speakers need to be adequately rated. If your head unit is 40 watts RMS per channel then you need a speaker that has some headroom above the headunits power. I'd be fitting a speaker that is rated at least 60 watts RMS. Forget PMPO ratings as they are meaningless, also ensure that you get the correct impedance speaker to match the headunit.

I don't realy agree. You can never have enough power basicly. 45 watt speakers will run perfectly fine from a 200 watt amp. It will provide better grip and control on the speaker. The standard speakers are pretty good for what they are and after some carefull adjustment of the settings in eq, fader and loudness they do realy do a great job in the little Panda and I'm a very critical home hifi nerd ;) .I'm not claiming that the Panda stereo is coming anywhere near my home set up (wich is probably half the price of my car...)but it certainly ain't bad.
 
Last edited:
All agreed, although the failure is most definitely due to a duff speaker, rather than being blown by pushing volume too high (I personally max out at about 16 regardless!). I am a bit geeky about proper home HiFi and still enjoy a 30+ year old Class-A amp with some lovely Linn Kaber speakers in my listening room. If only I could get that type of response and clarity in the car eh?!

Thanks the the answers so far folks (y)

Hahaha, but you wouldn't like the heat of your class A amp radiating from your dashboard ;).
After what I've read I would realyjust replace the speaker once more. As for clarity, I find the tweeters very good with a very nice stereo image and plenty of clarity.
I did adjust the EQ to my personal liking (the home hifi line level amplification ain't going to give you the best results in your car) even though I'm strictly line level at home. I've got some 1.3SE Dynaudio's combined with a Primare A30.1mkII btw so I'm certainly no stranger to a descent sounding system.
 
I don't realy agree. You can never have enough power basicly. 45 watt speakers will run perfectly fine from a 200 watt amp. It will provide better grip and control on the speaker.

Hi.
Well I'm afraid I cant agree. I have been building amplifiers for 40 odd years and setting up Hi-Fi systems both home and car for as long (see my you-tube channel)
The problem today is there is only one way to describe power ratings of amplifiers and the power a speaker can properly handle and that is by using RMS (Root Mean Square) figures. PMPO (Peak music power output) in the main means nothing, hitting a speaker with 200 watts for one nanosecond is not how things work in the real world.
So a speaker rated at 40 watts RMS should be fed from an amp slightly rated less at say 30 watts RMS, the thing is the 30 watt amp could be rated at 200 watts PMPO.
My home system is two Tannoy 605 speakers rated at 90 watts RMS maximum. The amp is a home built Mullard 3-3 stereo amp (Class A) and yes only 3 watts RMS at 0.1% THD. 70db hum and noise level.
I ask anyone to listen to my system and they are gobsmacked.
So really what I'm saying is that both speaker and amp should be measured using the same ratings RMS is the only proper way to do this and us that have been around a long time with audio know too well that RMS means real watts, not an arbitrary "peak" rating that has nothing to do with the real world.
 
Last edited:
Hi.
Well I'm afraid I cant agree. I have been building amplifiers for 40 odd years and setting up Hi-Fi systems both home and car for as long (see my you-tube channel)
The problem today is there is only one way to describe power ratings of amplifiers and the power a speaker can properly handle and that is by using RMS (Root Mean Square) figures. PMPO (Peak music power output) in the main means nothing, hitting a speaker with 200 watts for one nanosecond is not how things work in the real world.
So a speaker rated at 40 watts RMS should be fed from an amp slightly rated less at say 30 watts RMS, the thing is the 30 watt amp could be rated at 200 watts PMPO.
My home system is two Tannoy 605 speakers rated at 90 watts RMS maximum. The amp is a home built Mullard 3-3 stereo amp (Class A) and yes only 3 watts RMS at 0.1% THD. 70db hum and noise level.
I ask anyone to listen to my system and they are gobsmacked.
So really what I'm saying is that both speaker and amp should be measured using the same ratings RMS is the only proper way to do this and us that have been around a long time with audio know too well that RMS means real watts, not an arbitrary "peak" rating that has nothing to do with the real world.

I already stated that I was a hifi nerd so pmpo watts also mean nothing to me.
I also know that you can achieve impressive results with low power class A tube amps but this doesn't mean that a more powerfull amp is going to hurt.
Things like sensetivety (db per watt) tell much more about a speaker then there rated wattage and what they need to be driven succesfully.
Your Tannoys will work a treat with double the real rated 90 watt power but will get damaged if you feed them with an underpowered amp that is clipping all the time.
I don't doubt your very good at what you do and that you certainly know a lot about amps after building them for 40 years but that doesn't mean that what I said is incorrect so I will stand by it.
 
I already stated that I was a hifi nerd so pmpo watts also mean nothing to me.
I also know that you can achieve impressive results with low power class A tube amps but this doesn't mean that a more powerfull amp is going to hurt.
Things like sensetivety (db per watt) tell much more about a speaker then there rated wattage and what they need to be driven succesfully.
Your Tannoys will work a treat with double the real rated 90 watt power but will get damaged if you feed them with an underpowered amp that is clipping all the time.
I don't doubt your very good at what you do and that you certainly know a lot about amps after building them for 40 years but that doesn't mean that what I said is incorrect so I will stand by it.

Hi.
I'm not in the mood to argue and I find it pointless to try to persuade people to change a view if they are adamant they are correct.
Where I agree with you is about speaker sensitivity but where I don't is amplifier clipping, it doesn't damage speakers, (I think you are mixed up and mistaking the cone whipping due to overdriving the speaker rather than a distorting and clipping amp. Have you examined the waveform on a scope?). Look at it this way if a speaker is rated at 100w RMS & the amp clips at 40w there simply is not enough watts (ohms law & AC theory) to damage the speaker. Too much raw power will, again all clearly written down in theory.
I'm quite happy to prove it to anyone and with a suitable video, I've melted speech coils and torn cones in the past as demos to show how under rated speakers can be easily ruined by high quality high power amps.
 
Last edited:

This is also an intetesting read. To me it's not all as black and white as you say it is. I'm not someone who's just adamand that I'm correct but I'm not just going to agree or change my mind based on one post in a car forum.
I also still stand behind the things I said allthough you might differ on how you devine clipping(also keep in mind that English is not my native language, as you probably already noticed).
That said non clipping amps good for speaker(y)
Badly clipping amps bad for speaker(n)
The examples you provide as proof are at the extremes, very low power amp and high rated speaker and very high power amp and low rated speaker. I never said that you couldn't fry a cone with a high power amp but under normal music listening I'm not that worried as long as things sound clean and undistorted.

https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/clipping/page1.html
 
Hi.
The article you have linked to although on the right track is in some ways fundamentally wrong. A speaker coil is not a resistive load it is an inductive load and the addition of a crossover to feed the low frequency driver and the HF driver changes this to a reactive load.

I agree with you that discussing this in depth on a car forum isn't the right place. With many electronics qualifications I do feel that giving out incorrect info isn't helpful to members and could lead to wasted money. There is a lot in this world I don't know about and I'd never advise anyone on things I haven't a clue about. Audio though was the mainstay of my work for a long time with major manufacturers and hi fi and ICE, so all I'm trying to do is to dispel the myths that confuse so many.
I can't change anyone but sound engineering and solid fact I'm afraid will always be what I will give.
 
Hi.
The article you have linked to although on the right track is in some ways fundamentally wrong. A speaker coil is not a resistive load it is an inductive load and the addition of a crossover to feed the low frequency driver and the HF driver changes this to a reactive load.

I agree with you that discussing this in depth on a car forum isn't the right place. With many electronics qualifications I do feel that giving out incorrect info isn't helpful to members and could lead to wasted money. There is a lot in this world I don't know about and I'd never advise anyone on things I haven't a clue about. Audio though was the mainstay of my work for a long time with major manufacturers and hi fi and ICE, so all I'm trying to do is to dispel the myths that confuse so many.
I can't change anyone but sound engineering and solid fact I'm afraid will always be what I will give.

I'm not educated or knowledgeable enough to argue with you on electronics. I base my opinion on what I've read for many years and what I believe to be correct(I'm not just echoing one What Hifi article on how clipping sends dc voltage to your speaker...)
Still it's unclear to me if it's absolutely impossible that clipping can hurt a speaker but I'm willing to accept that you are right and let go of this idea as after reading up on it and looking at the information you provided the chance is at least very small.
That doesn't say I'm now going to replace my powerfull amps at home for less powerfull ones because I'm now afraid that it might hurt my speakers and I also won't hessitate to get an even more powerfull one if I think it sound better(even though science says all amps sound the same).
The problem with science for me is that what has been said and accepted to be the absolute truth for decades is old news when a better theory comes a long with different facts to back it up. This explains why I'm not just going go run and change my mind after every new presented idea, theory, proof or fact.

I fully agree that giving out incorrect info that can also leed to spending (much) money or even wasting it is harmfull and dumb.
Do I feel that I did this by advising to just get the original low priced oem speaker(asuming it is already pretty well matched to the original radio and knowing from experience that it has been performing pretty good for 5 years and 40000km in my own car under hard conditions)? No.
I will say that my earlier remarks about clipping amps hurting speakers can be dismissed as highly unlikely or just untrue and that using powerfull amps for lower rated speakers could cause them harm if driven to hard and carelessly.

I hope you understand now how my position and where I'm coming from and that it was never my intention to insult you or suggest that you where talking nonsense.

This is the original speaker unit btw for the topic starter:
https://www.fiatdalys.lt/en/catalog/parts/555/21/20/1/33/0/0/0/CMBBZ/GSX/loudspeaker
 
Last edited:
Hi.
Don't worry I'm not an unreasonable person. There is no reason not to use your powerful amp but not flat out. The issue is if you inadvertantly make a mistake. At the end of the day if your happy so am I.
Just enjoy your music
 
Folks,

Just to finish off this thread neatly, I can confirm how the front door panel comes off and the parts needed to install the new speakers.

I bought these in the end - Audison Prima APX 6.5 Speakers;

https://www.raysmith.co.uk/APX-65?search=APX%206.5&description=true

It also needed these adapter plates;

https://www.raysmith.co.uk/q-sa-fiat05-ducato-mdf-speaker-adapters-6-5-16-5cm?search=q%20sa-fiat05

Door cards are removed (as advised on another thread that I found) via a couple of 5mm Hex-head bolts - one behind the door shut/pull slot and one behind the inside door handle - and a couple of screws in the outer edge of the panel itself. Then carefully pry off the panel and the plastic clips will release. Be ready to unclip the door release cable and the entire panel comes away.

Original speakers are riveted on and need drilling out and the rest is a straight replacement. Check the +ve feeds match up with the new speakers (you can test the original speaker with a simple 1.5v dry-cell battery and see which way the speaker diaphragm moves - if it moves OUT then you have the terminals the right way round and the big "+" on the test battery will show you which is which) and reassemble accordingly.

So impressed am I with these Audison speakers, that I will now look to do the same with the rear units as well. I am awaiting confirmation as to the size and kit required (unless someone on here can tell me?) and will then take the same approach for those too.

The Audisons are pretty sensitive speakers and are designed to be used as upgrades to OEM setups that don't leverage massive amplifiers and high power etc, ie: they work well with stock headunits. The sound improvement is really very good.
 
Did you go into any sound and nvh improvements like our former sound guru mosfidelity? Some mass damped foam, perhaps? The thread in which he insulated the whole Panda has either lost the photos or disappeared completely but if I recall, damping the doors also significantly reduced road and wind noise in addition to improving sound quality from the audio system.
 
I didn't make any other acoustic improvements, as I didn't fancy further stripping out the door to get into the inner panels. However, the improvement from the speakers alone was well worth the effort in my view and I am pursuing the spec of the rear speakers so that I can get on and do those too.
 
Back
Top