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Old 27-02-2018   #16
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Quote Originally Posted by quotethepigeon View Post
Off the top of my head I remember he said the car has to be at the exact right temperature...
Not too far fetched..
Considering the service parametrr presets also include temperature info.

My TA is not quite as good now a non.fiat specialist is doing the work...

Makes you wonder ..
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Old 27-02-2018   #17
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Re: Annual MOT Twinair Emission Woes

Quote Originally Posted by quotethepigeon View Post
Off the top of my head I remember he said the car has to be at the exact right temperature...
It depends on the year of manufacture; also the 85HP and 105HP TA's are different.

All the details are in this document.

Early cars seem to be less critical with regard to oil temperature and rpm limits; note the much tighter parameters for the later cars in the detailed tables.

This leads me to wonder if some cars are being unfairly failed because they are not being tested properly.
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Old 27-02-2018   #18
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Re: Annual MOT Twinair Emission Woes

I wonder if this might be due to the way the valves operate?

The Multiair system alters the valve timing at low engine speeds.
Basically, the cam is "hot" for high loads, but the fluid links back it off for lower power/speeds.

It also times the valves to negate pumping losses, so it must at times cause air to pass through the combustion chambers and into the exhaust without being fired and used up.

Now if the fast idle test isn't quite fast enough (or the engine load not high enough) for the Multiair unit to stop this action, that could be causing excess oxygen to be detected in the exhaust gas, it's naturally passing the stuff through the chambers!
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Old 27-02-2018   #19
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Re: Annual MOT Twinair Emission Woes

Hi.
I've been watching this thread after making a couple of comments.
Most likely the differing technology of this engine is where I perhaps tripped up a bit on my thoughts. Goudrons suggestion makes sense, I believe the TA engine is very low friction and at fast idle would only require very little fuel, could the mapping of the ECU be on the lean side with this type of loading? Would turning on the headlights, HRW, Air con etc be enough to put some load on the engine and perhaps bring the Lambda volts down?
Watching the thread with interest.
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Old 27-02-2018   #20
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Re: Annual MOT Twinair Emission Woes

Quote Originally Posted by murphyv310 View Post
Would turning on the headlights, HRW, Air con etc be enough to put some load on the engine and perhaps bring the Lambda volts down?
Watching the thread with interest.
I think you may have confused Lambda is this case.

Lambda is a Greek letter and is being used to indicate a calculation.
In the emissions test this calculation is made by the exhaust analyser.

It measures the exhaust gases for oxygen, calculates it against Stoichiometric. (perfect fueling of 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel).

So say the engine is running lean at 16.1.
Divide 16 by 14.7 = lambda reading of 1.08

Running rich at 13.1.
Divide 13 by 14.7 = 0.88

Confusingly, the car it's self has Lambda (calculating) sensors, we also know them as O2 or Hego sensors.
They self generate a small signal voltage based on heat of the exhaust gases, the hotter the gas, the leaner the engine, the higher the voltage.

These sensors aren't what's actually tested by the analyser, more like their results.
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Old 27-02-2018   #21
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Re: Annual MOT Twinair Emission Woes

Quote Originally Posted by Goudrons View Post
I think you may have confused Lambda is this case.

Lambda is a Greek letter and is being used to indicate a calculation.
In the emissions test this calculation is made by the exhaust analyser.

It measures the exhaust gases for oxygen, calculates it against Stoichiometric. (perfect fueling of 14.7 parts air to 1 part fuel).

So say the engine is running lean at 16.1.
Divide 16 by 14.7 = lambda reading of 1.08

Running rich at 13.1.
Divide 13 by 14.7 = 0.88

Confusingly, the car it's self has Lambda (calculating) sensors, we also know them as O2 or Hego sensors.
They self generate a small signal voltage based on heat of the exhaust gases, the hotter the gas, the leaner the engine, the higher the voltage.

These sensors aren't what's actually tested by the analyser, more like their results.
Yes I see what you mean.
I think I'm getting mixed up, thanks for the explanation
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Old 27-02-2018   #22
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Re: Annual MOT Twinair Emission Woes

Some great stuff here and plenty of ideas to mull over, one of which is seriously thinking of getting the MOT done again in the summer when the engine has a good chance of maintaining the minimum oil temperature (80 deg in my 2012's case). ..Checking for a sticky thermostat might be an alternative?

Looking back over all my last 4 MOTs the Lambda in all the Fast Idle tests has ranged from 1.06 to 1.02.

just after this last retest (I sat in the bitterly cold viewing area and watched intently) I spoke to the tester and asked "no good, failed again?" and he said "No it passed, it just dropped in" ..I did notice on the second run that he seemed to be holding the revs higher and for a longer period.

Back home i plugged Ecuscan in and ran the car , the Oil temp was sitting at exactly 80 degrees under similar conditions. Holding the revs between 2500 and 3000 isn't easy, something is what feels like 'switching' causing the revs to move around the odd 100-200 RPM. Perhaps this is the Multiair unit 'doing its thing' so to speak.

The Irony of all this of course is that I have a vehicle that clearly has very good emissions but due to the MOT requirements I am thrashing it around to clear a 'fault' , in doing so, burning fuel unnescessarily and pusing out more emissions!
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Last edited by Vic20; 27-02-2018 at 21:12.
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Old 28-02-2018   #23
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Re: Annual MOT Twinair Emission Woes

My MOT is today..

Bitterly cold at a 'new to me' MOT station.


I gave it a decent run in the -4'C conditions..ECO..OFF

Anybody know what condition of ECO on-off the MOT test stipulates..??

Tester seems sensible..I will try and ask
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Old 28-02-2018   #24
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Re: Annual MOT Twinair Emission Woes

Overhere post 2006 vehicles get only tested on the OBDport. No codes stored means automatic pass. Codes present means clearing and/or testing the exhaust the oldfashioned way.
I remember the 03 Stilo of my son in law not passing. Cleaned the intake by spraying intake/carburettorcleaner @3000 rpm. Then had to relearn the ECU by making a long drive in the weekend. Next monday it passed (just)

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Old 28-02-2018   #25
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Re: Annual MOT Twinair Emission Woes

Quote Originally Posted by A3jeroen View Post
Overhere post 2006 vehicles get only tested on the OBDport.
I assume there are also physical checks too though, like for structural rust, bald tyres, collapsed suspension, etc?
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Old 28-02-2018   #26
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Re: Annual MOT Twinair Emission Woes

Quote Originally Posted by Eklipze3k View Post
I assume there are also physical checks too though, like for structural rust, bald tyres, collapsed suspension, etc?
Yes of course. I was strictly speaking about emissions. They are just a small part of APK (our MOT).
But all the other things (at least I can) can be prechecked at home. But as long as my MILlight is off I assume there's not going to be an emissionproblem.

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Old 01-03-2018   #27
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Quote Originally Posted by Vic20 View Post
Ok, Retest time...



So, scraped through, skin of its teeth. Only thing I did was take it for some long runs with some fuel system cleaner in the tank. (managed 63MPG) and a longer drive before the test to warm it up maybe a bit more thoroughly (not easy in this weather) which clearly made no difference for the first run.

Something clearly still isn't 'right' but at least I've now got another year to investigate further. I'm wondering if moving the MOT by taking it in for one in the summer might help

Here's some sensor figures from fiatEcuscan.



Perhaps I need to look at some temperature sensors maybe?

Mine was ok on its test.

Fast Idle

CO 0.03

HC 30 ppm

Lamda 1.001

Natural Idle

CO 0.02

PASS


AFAIK.. theyve always been this good.

Mileage at test was 34003.

Unfortunately didnt get to speak to tester about test method..
But I turned ECO on as I delivered the car.. it was still on ECO when collected.
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Old 01-03-2018   #28
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Quote Originally Posted by Vic20 View Post
Ok, Retest time...



So, scraped through, skin of its teeth. Only thing I did was take it for some long runs with some fuel system cleaner in the tank. (managed 63MPG) and a longer drive before the test to warm it up maybe a bit more thoroughly (not easy in this weather) which clearly made no difference for the first run.

Something clearly still isn't 'right' but at least I've now got another year to investigate further. I'm wondering if moving the MOT by taking it in for one in the summer might help

Here's some sensor figures from fiatEcuscan.



Perhaps I need to look at some temperature sensors maybe?

Mine was ok on its test.

Fast Idle

CO 0.03

HC 30 ppm

Lamda 1.001

Natural Idle

CO 0.02

PASS


AFAIK.. they've always been this good.

Mileage at test was 34003.

Unfortunately didnt get to speak to tester about test method..
But I turned ECO on as I delivered the car.. it was still on ECO when collected.
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Last edited by varesecrazy; 01-03-2018 at 09:58.
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Old 15-03-2018   #29
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Re: Annual MOT Twinair Emission Woes

So my car passed, again my friend said it just needs to be at the correct temperature. The last mot failed on emissions at ATS before I got retested with him...
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Old 17-03-2018   #30
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Quote Originally Posted by quotethepigeon View Post
So my car passed, again my friend said it just needs to be at the correct temperature. The last mot failed on emissions at ATS before I got retested with him...
In which engine mode?
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