puntofan01 said:

I love Fiats, but it saddens me to see the mess they've landed themselves in. Quite frankly, it's depressing, especially as the roads are now completely flooded with nasty soulless boxes from ford and vag.

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Don't forget the massive impact that the South Korean manufacturers have had in the UK, especially in the sector of the market that Fiat used to do well in. In my office car park alone, out of the circa 15 private cars that regularly park there, no fewer than 7 are now Hyundai or Kia. (The others are Audi x 3, VW x 2, Nissan x 1, Volvo x 1 and Fiat x 1 - mine). Yes, it's a very small sample, but I find it instructive.

That is true. Would that majorly affect Fiat though? I'd imagine it to be nissan and maybe Mazda who would notice the effect on sales more. At risk of stereotyping, I class the Koreans as being rivals to nissan, ford and Vauxhall, as they're more the white goods area of the car market, and I'd consider Fiat to be more of a rival to Peugeot, Renault and Citroën, as they're generally more interesting in their design.

puntofan01 said:

That is true. Would that majorly affect Fiat though? I'd imagine it to be nissan and maybe Mazda who would notice the effect on sales more. At risk of stereotyping, I class the Koreans as being rivals to nissan, ford and Vauxhall, as they're more the white goods area of the car market, and I'd consider Fiat to be more of a rival to Peugeot, Renault and Citroën, as they're generally more interesting in their design.

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I imagine for most buyers in the UK, 'design' is secondary to price/badge/spec/warranty. The exception is probably the FIAT 500.

I know when the new Twingo was coming out I had high hopes. But in the flesh it's just.......not....quite.......right.

FIAT will always have a place in Italy but they have made so many ill decisions to affect their sales abroad. Shareholders demand strong returns and they have to try and ride the low-cost:high-income magic carpet. Let someone else sell the low-margin stuff.

They're playing Monopoly with two houses on the Old Kent Road and VW has 4 hotels on Mayfair and Park Lane.

I know what you mean about the Twingo, I really wanted to like it, but as you say, it just doesn't look quite right.

It's such a shame people put such a moronic importance on the badge really. For me personally, I think the nicest cars have the least desirable badges, rather ironically. I think if Fiat could make an attractive car, and price it more towards the Dacia/Suzuki/Kia/Hyundai end of the market, rather than trying to tackle the vw/ford/Vauxhall crowds, they might stand a chance.

One factor to consider is that the way new cars are sold has changed significantly over the last ten years.

At the time of writing, most new cars are sold on pcp finance to buyers whose primary financial focus is on the monthly payment. Thus the incentive on manufactures is to maximise the 'must have now' feeling for the lowest pcp payment. Those making the buying decisions don't generally care about the longer term issues, so it's not surprising that manufacturers don't place much importance on the lifetime ownership costs.

There are not many other things we buy where the key purchasing decision isn't made by the person who will live with it for most of its life.

I must admit, I've never understood why people do that. If I were to buy a brand new car, I'd intend to keep it as many years as I possibly could, so as to get my moneys' worth out of it!

puntofan01 said:

I must admit, I've never understood why people do that. If I were to buy a brand new car, I'd intend to keep it as many years as I possibly could, so as to get my moneys' worth out of it!

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Me too, but we're very much in the minority.

Manufacturers incentivise dealers to maximise the throughput of new vehicles. Franchised dealers keep service department costs sky high in part to encourage older car owners with issues to trade in rather than to repair.

One key point is that the value to you of a 3yr old car which you've owned from new, driven carefully and serviced well, is way, way greater than the value of a 3yr old car bought at random from a dealer's forecourt - and will likely cost far, far less to maintain over the next ten.

If you know you'll only be owning the car for 2 or 3 years, there's less incentive to drive it sympathetically.

Another point is that some folks seem to be wary of having to put an older car through an MOT. This is a common, but totally unjustified, misconception; a car that's kept in proper order and taken to an independent testing station (preferably one that doesn't also do repairs) will almost always pass without issues.

jrkitching said:

There are not many other things we buy where the key purchasing decision isn't made by the person who will live with it for most of its life.

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Yep. The days of buying your first house and wondering if you can live with the excellent, hard-wearing but rather busy Axminster are long gone.

Nobody wants to be left behind in the great XXXXX upgrade race and for just a few more pounds a month you can swap and enjoy a moment of inner peace.

AB100 said:

Nobody wants to be left behind in the great XXXXX upgrade race and for just a few more pounds a month you can swap and enjoy a moment of inner peace.

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There are a lot of folks today who've been brought up on the mobile phone sales model and treat car buying decisions in the same way. I seriously doubt many of the buyers understand the real committment they are making when they sign car finance papers.

I recently browsed an aftermarket used car website and all the cars were priced at 'so much per month'; I couldn't find a single 'buy it now' price on the whole site.

Never got people wanting to spend all that sort of money out on the payments and then not own the car after all that?

Horses for courses. If you really must have a shiny new car every couple of years, and if the PCH/PCP costs are lower than the depreciation from new over that period, then you'd be nuts to buy, rather than rent. It's easy enough to do the financial calculation: if the overall cost of PCH/PCP is less than, say, 25-30% of that vehicle's OTR price, it probably makes financial sense, provided you would have been looking to trade it in at that point anyway. The only downsides are being locked in to the agreement for the period of the PCH/PCP, and the financial penalties if you exceed the agreed mileage, or return the car damaged.

Looked at in that light, obtaining a car on a PCH/PCP deal is clearly not as big a financial commitment as buying a new car outright. It is more analogous to a mobile phone contract or Sky package. If you can afford the monthly payments, and you're not bothered about not owning the car at the end of the contract period, PCH/PCP makes sense, provided (a) you're not paying more than what you'd have lost in depreciation over the same period if you'd bought it outright, and (b) you'd have been wanting to chop it in for another car after a couple of years anyway.

And as a plus point, you're not left with a car to trade in, or sell privately, when you get bored with it.

There's a lot of incredibly sad individuals out there. My own car is 10 years old now, and I can honestly say that I have absolutely no desire to part with it any time soon!

puntofan01 said:

There's a lot of incredibly sad individuals out there. My own car is 10 years old now, and I can honestly say that I have absolutely no desire to part with it any time soon!

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But you could keep it, and add another toy to your stable for just a few ££ a month!

I'm quite tempted by a Scirocco TSI 180 DSG for under £200 per month. That's less than I shell out in petrol to commute to work!

*sits back and waits for the howls of derision*

If you change the Panda gar074 will keep eye out for where it ends up. One careful owner. :worship:

Al D said:

If you change the Panda gar074 will keep eye out for where it ends up. One careful owner. :worship:

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You haven't seen how I drive it :devil:, and it's only been washed 3 times in nearly 3 years...

Having said that, I've managed to keep my wife and daughter out of the driving seat, so it has no dents or dings

I'm really disappointed FIAT did not introduce the new Firefly engines in the Panda and 500 @ Geneva.
I even start to doubt we will see them in this generation Panda and 500.
According to the latest info, the new Panda will be introduced @ the IAA Frankfurt 2019, mening a little over 1.5 year away.
Fiat say they have start Panda 4 development in Turin and need about 18 months for it to be ready for introduction.
If they really have started Panda 4 development, i don't think there will be much investment into the existing Panda anymore, so no Firefly engines in this Generation Panda.
Still don't understand why they never have made the 105 hp TwinAir available for the Panda 319.
Or Maybe they will surprise us with it in June, as a last send-off.

gar074: if I was to buy a 2nd car, it would just be a newer Fiat, and I'll put my Grande into storage somewhere, lol!
The Pretender: I'd imagine they haven't put the TwinAir 105 into the current Panda so as not to harm 500 sales. Like I say, I just hope they give us a new supermini in the meantime!

puntofan01 said:

The Pretender: I'd imagine they haven't put the TwinAir 105 into the current Panda so as not to harm 500 sales. Like I say, I just hope they give us a new supermini in the meantime!

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According to info the next Gen Alfa Romeo Mito will be a completely different car compare to the 3-door it is now.
My advice would be, produce a Panda sized next gen Mito and put in the 1750i TB engine.
I could also see a Fiat Argo derivate under the Alfa Romeo badge.
It is almost certain there will be no next Punto or a direct Argo based replacement, instead there will be a 5-door 500 in Lancia Ypsilon size.
The Ypsilon has a 2388mm wheelbase, Panda and 3-door 500 have a 2300mm wheelbase.

*shakes head*

Fiat really have lost the plot.

Fiat did not show any Panda's @ Geneva, so far i have seen.
Not seen any pictures of a Panda @ the Geneva FIAT stands so far.

But yesterday:

Sighted a Fiat Panda in disguise. (Friday, March9, 2018.)






Some translation.

This morning, (March 9, 2018, at 7.30) this Fiat Panda in disguise was seen in Bologna.
There were no reports of a possible redesign, but it could be ModelYear 2019.
It already happened with other ModelYear Panda and the Panda Cross City to see these camouflages.
It is not excluded that this is also the new GSE-Firefly engine test.

https://passioneautoitaliane.blogspot.nl/2018/03/avvistata-una-fiat-panda-camuffata.html