Register Login
FIAT Auto Specialist Team
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 29-11-2017   #1
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 167
Thanks: 2
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Follow up - why a Twin Air 4x4 over the FWD?

Following:

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-iii/...-have-you.html

Just to link to this as a similar but different topic but I've noticed a great many on here have gone for the 4x4 who might not necessarily need or use the capability. What is also surprising is many have come from the 100HP.

Why is that? The package/looks/crap UK tarmac roads/6 speed box?

I have been a Land Rover nut for over 20 years never without a Green Oval of some type on the drive and do use them as intended.

I don't need the 4x4 capability (although would no doubt use it) but the look of a green 4x4 Panda and the kit that goes with it does appeal - all the goodies as well as discs all round, 6 speed box etc.

What does not appeal so much is the much lower top speed (academic I know but...) and the near second off 0-60 that presumably dents others in-gear times plus the possibility of poorer handling (raised suspension etc), lower consumption, potential mechanicals, with the 4x4 system.

So questions are (especially for those who have compared it to the FWD or 100HP):

How does it handle when pressing on compared to the FWD?

I understand the 'box has a lower first but what about 4/5/6 - is 6 higher for cruising compared to 5 on the FWD? Do you prefer the 6 speeder?

Also one of the best things about the 100HP was the slickest 'box I think I've enjoyed in 30 + cars. The current Panda seems to have a reputation for a slightly clunky change and heavier clutch - does the box loosen up with use?

Is the slight loss of power due to drivetrain an issue?
__________________
Max.
Dervdrain is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 29-11-2017   #2
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Endmoor
Posts: 816
Thanks: 51
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Follow up - why a Twin Air 4x4 over the FWD?

Part of the reason for buying my TA 4x4 was it being practical in rain, ice, mud and snow. Plus living somewhere rural at the top of a hill too. Though the second parking space I now use will prove interesting in the 1.2 and it's further down the slope. Regularly go back to adjoining county grew up in and there's a set of traffic lights set on a slope. Didn't realise rear wheels on the 4x4 would push me from standing start. 1.2 struggles for traction slightly. Which has ruled out a Trekking now for future. Don't see point of a 6 speed gearbox on a Panda as gearing exactly same to me anyway apart from a short 1st.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Al D is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 29-11-2017   #3
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Guildford
Posts: 976
Thanks: 119
Trader Rating: 1
R1NGA has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Follow up - why a Twin Air 4x4 over the FWD?

I have had a Panda 4x4 since about 1989, in one form or another - two original square-box Mk1/2 cars, a 1.2 Mk3 (which I supercharged to 110bhp, just to see what it was like) and now a Mk4 TA. All utterly fabulous.

During that time I also did over 350,000 in a classic Range Rover and after that a 200TDi Mk1 Disco. LR products of course awesome in the dedicated off-road arena (I was an active member of the AWDC and LR Owners), but neither of them could hold a candle to the Pandas when the snows used to come. Not even a Land Rover can hide 2-tons+ of blubber when grip levels drop away so much (and don't even get me started on the current flock of Ego-Panzers out there, so beloved by the school-run brigade...). My off-roading stopped, as well as the need to pull bike and car trailers around Europe, so I went back to normal saloons, but kept the Panda of course.

My TA 4x4 handles and rides really well and the grip levels are very high. In my view they benefit hugely from the fitment of some Negative Camber bolts in the front uprights and with approaching 2 degrees of -ve, they bite that much harder on turn-in. And you get some lift-off oversteer when you want too, so there's much more to play with. I've covered I guess about 70,000 in Mk3 and now Mk4 with the Camber Bolts and no sign of any untoward impact on bearings. Sure needs tracking reset afterwards though of course.....

My Supercharged Mk3 (easy to find my write-ups on that forum with a search) was like a tiny Impreza WRX, although ultimately I fitted too small a supercharger and it didn't last, so converted back to stock before moving it on for my TA 4x4. It would pull 6,500rpm in top gear though, when it was on form (in Germany).

Just need a decent winter now please.
Likes Dervdrain liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

R1NGA is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 29-11-2017   #4
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: South-East
Posts: 246
Thanks: 37
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Follow up - why a Twin Air 4x4 over the FWD?

For many, I think this is less of a question of 'why?' And more 'why not?'. By the time discounts have been applied and you look at like-for-like spec, the cost differential between a well equipped 2WD TA, vs a 4x4 TA is small enough to make the additional capability more appealing, with minimal detrimental performance impacts.
That 6-speed box means there's a spread of gears that probably helps offset some of the extra weight in the real world of rolling acceleration and the extra grip off the line makes wet-junction take-offs slip-free. (For many, expectations are for 'respectable' acceleration, rather than 'rocket ship'!)
There's negligible effect on fuel economy, since most of the time it's a 2WD with a passenger's worth of weight. The low 1st gear makes an ideal take off gear if towing, as well as the pleasant surprise that the same gear makes for an ideal clutch-up rolling gear in slow traffic.
The extra suspension travel doesn't hurt over speed-bumps and rough city roads and apparently with little detrimental effect in terms of roll etc.
Next to a 1.2 4cyl pop/easy, it may look expensive, but next to a higher-specced 2WD TA, many feel it's worth the extra (relatively small) outlay.
Oh....and that's before we get to that well-documented off-road and all-weather capability.
It's also entirely possible that the 4x4 pulls in buyers that wouldn't otherwise consider a Panda - it's one of only a handful of all-wheel drive city cars.
Likes Dervdrain liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides


Last edited by Panda 4x4 TA Antarctica; 29-11-2017 at 22:52.
Panda 4x4 TA Antarctica is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 29-11-2017   #5
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Beccles, Suffolk
Posts: 2,368
Thanks: 197
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Follow up - why a Twin Air 4x4 over the FWD?

Just seen the weather forecast. I reckon I’ll be able to tell you whether the 4x4 is a better choice than the FWD this time tomorrow...
__________________
Barchetta LE (no 2468), 1998, Silver with Red Hood and Red Leather Interior, Hardtop, Wind-stop, Novitec SS Exhaust
Panda Cross Twinair, 15 Reg, in glorious Yellow , replacing a much-loved yellow DS3 DSport THP
gar074 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 30-11-2017   #6
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,188
Thanks: 276
Trader Rating: 0
Goudrons has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Follow up - why a Twin Air 4x4 over the FWD?

With the weight higher up, it's fairly obvious you'll feel the weight transfer about a bit more when cornering, but you really need to be a bit silly for it to become buttock clenching.

Take a tight motorway slip or link road like a loony and it does all feel a bit on edge (I know, I've done it), but you need to be doing speeds that could see your license booking a Welsh holiday.

Back roads on a quick pace are fine, it's actually quite fun.
Use the 4x4 and what boost you managed to keep bubbling away to drag you out of corners fast rather than throw it in too fast knowing the weight transfer will throw you out.

It's fun but it's no sports car!

The 6 speed box with it's low 1st (and the TA engine) does tend to see you making quite a lot of gear changes.

It can sound and feel like it's always wanting to change down once you get it up in the higher gears and have to make what is only a small decrease in speed, but you need to ignore your senses, more often than not it's quite happy to flog a higher gear and chuff around like that.

When you go to the extremes like this, you can feel the firing pulses at times as it picks up from nothing and it sounds kind of mental.

The only time a gear change doesn't feel smooth is if I pull away too sharp and the coupling is shoving a lot of power rearwards and all four wheels have plenty of grip.

Load the diffs and shafts up like this doesn't make any 4x4 change gear too well though.

The clutch is almost weightless to start with, but like a lot of clutches, it can weight up as the plate wears and the pressure plate moves up, nothing overly noticeable though.
Likes johncard007 liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

Goudrons is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 30-11-2017   #7
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 167
Thanks: 2
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Follow up - why a Twin Air 4x4 over the FWD?

Thanks again all and really useful info - answered some of my own questions in the other topic having driven one now and I can certainly see the appeal of the 'off-road' Pandas, I won't repeat or duplicate it all here, so see below:

https://www.fiatforum.com/panda-iii/...ml#post4305659
__________________
Max.
Dervdrain is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 30-11-2017   #8
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,191
Thanks: 153
Trader Rating: 0
Netherlands 
Re: Follow up - why a Twin Air 4x4 over the FWD?

You can also choose a Panda Trekking with a sophisticated traction control system.
It looks like a Panda 4x4, but has FWD with more traction.
__________________
There are Pretenders among us.....
Geniuses with the ability to become anyone they want to be.
The Pretender is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 04-12-2017   #9
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: East
Posts: 1,455
Thanks: 67
Trader Rating: 1
The Panda Nut has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Follow up - why a Twin Air 4x4 over the FWD?

The brakes are the same broadly as the 100HP in the 4x4, ( I know of no other car that can stop as rapidly as a 100HP) and the gearing is similar too although 1st is pretty low the other 5 are close ratio and the box is better than the 100HP (in mine at least) Handling is compromised by the longer spring travel and the high profile tyres, You can still chuck it around with gusto and it responds remarkably well. The 100HP would cock its inside rear wheel 18" off the ground when going mad, while still hanging on to the road for dear life before understeer stopped the silliness. Narrower rubber on the 4x4 is obvious too. I do like not grounding if I need to pull onto a verge and not needing to worry about the deep holes and mud on Norfolk's narrow lanes at this time of year. The 100HP is also the worst car I have ever owned in snow totally hopeless in fact!!!
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

The Panda Nut is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 31-03-2018   #10
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 49
Thanks: 2
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Follow up - why a Twin Air 4x4 over the FWD?

R1NGA Did you ever see the youtube clip from 5th Gear where Tiff Needell competes against a Defender in a Panda Cross, the clip actually proves your point.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides


Last edited by johncard007; 31-03-2018 at 20:21.
johncard007 is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 31-03-2018   #11
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Devon and Umbria
Posts: 2,103
Thanks: 209
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Follow up - why a Twin Air 4x4 over the FWD?

Quote Originally Posted by The Panda Nut View Post
The brakes are the same broadly as the 100HP in the 4x4, ( I know of no other car that can stop as rapidly as a 100HP) and the gearing is similar too although 1st is pretty low the other 5 are close ratio and the box is better than the 100HP (in mine at least) Handling is compromised by the longer spring travel and the high profile tyres, You can still chuck it around with gusto and it responds remarkably well. The 100HP would cock its inside rear wheel 18" off the ground when going mad, while still hanging on to the road for dear life before understeer stopped the silliness. Narrower rubber on the 4x4 is obvious too. I do like not grounding if I need to pull onto a verge and not needing to worry about the deep holes and mud on Norfolk's narrow lanes at this time of year. The 100HP is also the worst car I have ever owned in snow totally hopeless in fact!!!
Agree with all that. I'd add that the 4x4 TA's in-gear acceleration is essentially the same as the 100HP's. The gravel road to our Italian house (we'll be there next week till July - can't wait) has got to the point where the 100HP simply couldn't go up it and it always had trouble restarting on the steepest sections if you had to stop for any reason - wild boar, porcupine, oncoming car. And the roads in Devon are pretty crap as well.
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

babbo_umbro is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 03-04-2018   #12
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Guildford
Posts: 976
Thanks: 119
Trader Rating: 1
R1NGA has donated!
United Kingdom 
Re: Follow up - why a Twin Air 4x4 over the FWD?

Quote Originally Posted by johncard007 View Post
R1NGA Did you ever see the youtube clip from 5th Gear where Tiff Needell competes against a Defender in a Panda Cross, the clip actually proves your point.
I did indeed and was thrilled to see my theory thoroughly proven. I have become very 'weight-ist' of late and now fully appreciate how the likes of Colin Chapman and Gordon Murray got it spot-on regarding the benefits of adding lightness. Trouble is it's the marketing folks who pedal massive-metal to the (generally badly informed) buying public and make good money from it.
Likes johncard007 liked this post
__________________
FIAT Forum Useful Links:
Donate to FF | Buy FF Merchandise | Classifieds | FF Insurance | How-to Guides

R1NGA is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 03-04-2018   #13
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Alkmaar, Netherlands
Posts: 1,611
Thanks: 87
Trader Rating: 0
Netherlands 
Re: Follow up - why a Twin Air 4x4 over the FWD?

Give a car more power and it's faster on the straights. Make it lighter and it's faster everywhere. IIRC that's the Colin Chapman philosophy.

gr J
Likes jrkitching liked this post
__________________
"Look for the ridiculous in everything and you will find it". - Jules Renard
A3jeroen is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Old 03-04-2018   #14
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Dorset
Posts: 8,438
Thanks: 886
Trader Rating: 0
United Kingdom 
Re: Follow up - why a Twin Air 4x4 over the FWD?

Quote Originally Posted by A3jeroen View Post
Give a car more power and it's faster on the straights. Make it lighter and it's faster everywhere. IIRC that's the Colin Chapman philosophy.
"... simplify, then add lightness"

In other words, the exact opposite of what Fiat have done with the latest Panda .
__________________


"Just 'cos you're not paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you"


Last edited by jrkitching; 03-04-2018 at 18:46.
jrkitching is offline Reply With Quote Quote 
Reply
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump
Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
(T) 4x4 Twin Air stalling :-( Haroosh Panda (2012+) 8 17-02-2017 17:04
Panda 2012+ 4x4 Twin Air 2013 only 3.6k miles Al D Auction Watch 8 16-09-2016 22:49
(T) clutch - 4x4 twin air nikkko Panda (2012+) 14 22-01-2016 12:19
(G) 4x4 Twin air mpg triumph7 Panda (2012+) 16 08-05-2014 12:31
Panda 2012+ 4x4 Twin Air coming soon Ironlung Newbie Central 18 10-10-2013 22:40