Technical Panda Twin Air ignition issues

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Technical Panda Twin Air ignition issues

trekkingpaul

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Hi guys I have a lovely little Panda Trekking which has been running great for a year. Just recently, about 2 minutes after starting the car, it runs roughly then the engine warning light and general warning light come on, and the car loses power. I suspect this is some sort of shut down/safety mode.
If I park and then restart the engine, it runs OK but the general warning light stays on ( but engine warning light off ). After another few mins if I stop/start again, all warning lights go off and the car drives great but with "stop start unavailable" warning message on screen, and the stop start light on the button activated.
Garage diagnosed a left side ignition coil fault and I had that replaced yesterday, but today I had a repeat of the same issues.
Any ideas?
 
A few hundred pounds later and with 2 trips to main dealer, no progress with this issue.


Main dealer diagnosed coil fault and changed coil and spark plugs and car seemed to work OK afterwards, with perhaps a bit of hesitation in the engine. This morning it again lost power, stop/start unavailable message was displayed, and engine and general warning lights came on. After a bit, the car started to run OK, but with warning light still on.


I will be getting rid of this car, it seems to me to be very badly designed with very poor build quality. Fiat - never again.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if it turns oyt to be the uni air unit. Friend if mine had similar problems and they also first went the coil/plug route.
Problems with his car where mainly at freeway speeds though and resulted in a loss of power and lights on the dash.
Sad thing was that they only found out aftet the warrenty had passed...
Don't know if your car is srill under warrenty but if it is find a good dealer and have it fixed.
The remark about poor build quality and design is understandable but not realy correct. Lot's of twin airs running fine and done plenty of miles. Yoyr hard pressed to find a manufacturer that doesn't have some or major engine problems.
Hope things will get fixed and will turn out well for you. Also ask for coulance from Fiat uf your car is out of warrenty, with my friends car they paid for half of the uni air unit.
 
Sadly no warranty!
Fault typically occurs when engine cold, usually when accelerating for the first time.
Once I have stopped/restarted the car, it runs fairly well but as I said, slightly hesitantly.
I don't want to spend another £1000 on the car unless I can be guaranteed of a solution, so I will be trading it in for a non-Fiat vehicle.
 
When i bought my Panda twin air 4x4 i had misfire when accelerating.
I replaced both coil packs but proplem remained.
Fiat serviced the car and replaced the spark plugs and all is well.
I understand plug only last around 20K, and interesting to note there was no problem in ECO mode, only when eco was off and you needed the extra boost.
 
Sadly no warranty!
Fault typically occurs when engine cold, usually when accelerating for the first time.
Once I have stopped/restarted the car, it runs fairly well but as I said, slightly hesitantly.
I don't want to spend another £1000 on the car unless I can be guaranteed of a solution, so I will be trading it in for a non-Fiat vehicle.

Hi.
Sad to think that replacing a car with another make when bought used will be trouble free. Fiat are no worse than others and often a lot better. Let's not forget if you buy a Corsa, you could be sitting on a Fiat floor pan or a Fiat MJ engine. If you buy a Ford Ka it is very closely related to a Panda, then of course the Jeep Renegade.
Personally I'd put the problem down to incorrect servicing and the dealer stabbing in the dark. I really dislike the way garages fit parts Willy nilly, charge an arm and a leg then the customer comes back with the same issue. The garage should then refund the bill and ideally refit the perfectly good old parts. You cannot blame Fiat for incompetence by the repair operative.
The Twin Air engine in my view should be serviced more frequently using the correct spec oil and like every closed circuit breather system.... have a vented oil catch tank.
So I'd say you are better off with what you have rather than buying another car with someone else's problems that could cost you dearly.
 
Cheers Trevor I know what you mean. But there comes a point when you have to question spending £1000 plus on a £4000 car.
I'll run it a bit longer and see if I can identify the exact situations where the warning lights come on/engine misfires. At least I can discount plug/coil issues now as they have all been changed ( twice! ). Oil also been changed.
 
Granted the TA seems to have far more issues than the FIRE engined cars. I'm wondering how easy it is to remove and clean the uni air unit? Perhaps if it's a reasonably easy DIY job then a clean every couple of years would be an idea.
Not having a TA though I'd not really know.
 
What does the uni air unit do?

It inject the fuel AND AIR..

THE engine has no inlet valves.. the uni air unit injects the fuel:air mix...
Up to 7xper induction stroke..
Hence the clean running..and good power.

There is supposedly a filter on the multiair unit that garages ignore...

Out of interest how many miles...
And has it had proper servicing?

An owner on here has covered 100k miles..without engine issues

Charlie 2012 punto TA
 
It alters valve lift.

Oil is used as a link between cam and inlet valve lifters.

Solenoids control the oil in these links so it's able to alter valve lift and timing depending on engine load.

https://www.schaeffler.com/remoteme...loads_11/schaeffler_kolloquium_2010_18_en.pdf

(Very) Basically, these engines are fitted with what's often called a "hot cam", it has an aggressive profile designed for best power at higher engine speeds, but they're pretty useless for power at slower speeds and usually need a very high idle just to keep the engine running.

The Uniair backs off the aggressive lift profile at lower speeds/load by opening the solenoids and removing some oil in the links, making it work better at these lower speeds and loads.


With the inlet valves controlled this way, it elminates the need to further control air entering the engine, so it does away with the need for a throttle body/butterfly flap.
This elminates engine pumping losses that occur at slow engine speeds (the energy used by the engine caused by differing pressures between inlet and exhaust strokes).

With a normal intake arrangement, some power stored in the crank/flywheel is needed on the intake stroke as it "sucks" against a closed throttle butterfly, like on the over run or at slow engine speeds.
With the Uniair system there's no butterfly so it can breathe freely on the intake stroke.

I believe the system is safe, so if anything does fail, the valves remain closed and won't come into contact with the pistons.

Obviously the system is reliant on engine oil, low engine oil and the valves/solenoids can't lift the valves and I seem to think there is/are "oil strainers" fitted to stop debris suspended in the oil entering unit.
 
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WOW! Thanks for that!


Could a slightly low engine oil level cause the uni air system to stumble, whilst at the same time not tripping the usual low oil pressure sensor warning lights?
 
...
THE engine has no inlet valves.. ---

That sounds highly unlikely - as it would give the engine a permanently open hole in the head (!) hence no compression - or no controlled means of allowing the air/fuel mixture to enter the cylinders - I thought the valve opening was a combination of camshaft and hydraulic control.
 
That sounds highly unlikely - as it would give the engine a permanently open hole in the head (!) hence no compression - or no controlled means of allowing the air/fuel mixture to enter the cylinders - I thought the valve opening was a combination of camshaft and hydraulic control.

Not quite as unlikely as you'd think!

Yes, this engine has valves, but there are plenty petrol and diesel engines without any valves that run happily.

Piston port 2 strokes have nothing but the piston to control the intake and exhaust timings.
No valves, discs or reeds, just the movement of the piston uncovering ports cut into the cylinder walls that allow fuel and air in and exhaust out.


Back on track, low oil can and has caused a few running issues with the TA's, though it's difficult to say if yours is suffering from this.
https://www.fiatforum.com/500/453880-105-twinair-stalling.html

I've have thought with all the dash lights and warnings, there would be a code stored, even if it's only a pending fault.

An oil change isn't going to break the bank though.
Only use the correct grade and spec of oil, it's vital.

Oh, never ever rely on the oil warning light.
By the time it triggers it's usually far too late for the engines health.
Check your oil every 1000-1500 miles with the dipstick (if you can read the bugger!)
 
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Not quite as unlikely as you'd think!

Yes, this engine has valves, but there are plenty petrol and diesel engines without any valves that run happily.

Piston port 2 strokes have nothing but the piston to control the intake and exhaust timings.
No valves, discs or reeds, just the movement of the piston uncovering ports cut into the cylinder walls that allow fuel and air in and exhaust out.


Back on track, low oil can and has caused a few running issues with the TA's, though it's difficult to say if yours is suffering from this.
https://www.fiatforum.com/500/453880-105-twinair-stalling.html

I've have thought with all the dash lights and warnings, there would be a code stored, even if it's only a pending fault.

An oil change isn't going to break the bank though.
Only use the correct grade and spec of oil, it's vital.

Oh, never ever rely on the oil warning light.
By the time it triggers it's usually far too late for the engines health.
Check your oil every 1000-1500 miles with the dipstick (if you can read the bugger!)

Sound advice.
I always advocate doing an extra oil and filter replacement at half the recommended intervals. This is a fall back to rep cars that can do longer mileage without servicing.
 
Just recently, about 2 minutes after starting the car, it runs roughly then the engine warning light and general warning light come on, and the car loses power. I suspect this is some sort of shut down/safety mode.
If I park and then restart the engine, it runs OK but the general warning light stays on ( but engine warning light off ). After another few mins if I stop/start again, all warning lights go off and the car drives great but with "stop start unavailable" warning message on screen, and the stop start light on the button activated.

Just reading this again and a few things jump out.

"about 2 minutes after starting"
This will be around the time the engine ECU will change from a cold start strategy to a warm running one.

One of the main alterations it makes then would be to the fueling. (though I presume as it can control the valve strategy as well, this would also likely alter between cold and warm running)


I suffered from this on our old 2007 Panda Active, similar cold start issues with all good on a hot restart.

Logging the fueling with a diagnostic tool, it kept tripping into a safe fueling mode after a cold start up and running like a dog, uneven idle, rough lumpy running, no power etc, but went straight to closed loop after a warm start and ran perfect.

I checked and rechecked everything, coolant sensor, O2 etc and it all appeared good.
It was only when I compared the resistance of both O2's heater circuits did I notice the upstream was different (both were identical parts on that model).
Swapped them over and all was good.

I reckon the original upstream O2 sensor heater was too slow so if failed to warm up and fuel correctly until everything was hot and it'd been restarted.
 
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..
Piston port 2 strokes have nothing but the piston to control the intake and exhaust timings.
No valves, discs or reeds, just the movement of the piston uncovering ports cut into the cylinder walls that allow fuel and air in and exhaust out.
...)

Yes, I know about two strokes - and alternatives to poppet valves, such as sleeve valves, and rotary heads - but this is a four stroke.
 
Might have made some progress with this issue. I put some additional oil in the engine, and also set the engine into ECO mode. Ran perfectly this morning with no loss of power, warning lights, nothing!
 
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